# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/461 "2014-09-09T17:21:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You recall wrong, especially because chattel had no legal rights to resist, nor legal recourse if victimized. A master had the legal right to order his slave into his bed, and the legal right to order her to submit to his advances. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/462 "2014-09-09T17:22:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is not the place of the gun to judge the moral character of that at which it has been aimed. People are not guns. What say you about those men and women who disobeyed orders and saved lives? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/463 "2014-09-09T17:22:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Might makes right? _Finally_ someone understands what I’ve been trying to say here. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/464 "2014-09-09T17:23:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > People are not guns. What say you about those men and women who disobeyed orders and saved lives? That they were not good soldiers and they were a liability to any unit to which they were attached. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/465 "2014-09-09T17:25:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cite? [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment_of_slaves_in_the_United_States#Sexual_relations_and_rape). Pretty damn easy to find. “white men could rape female slaves without fear of punishment… Free (or white) women could charge their perpetrators with rape, but slave women had no legal recourse; their bodies legally belonged to their owners”. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/466 "2014-09-09T17:25:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cite? Extra-special triple lameness points for using this gambit a half-dozen posts after the cite was given to you. Oh, and PTtKUWtC. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/467 "2014-09-09T17:26:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That they were not good soldiers and they were a liability to any unit to which they were attached. You have a terrible understanding of what makes a good soldier. I hope you never serve in the military. Further, many times they weren’t soldiers, but civil administrators, police officers, diplomats, and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/468 "2014-09-09T17:26:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment_of_slaves_in_the_United_States#Sexual_relations_and_rape). Pretty damn easy to find. “white men could rape female slaves without fear of punishment… Free (or white) women could charge their perpetrators with rape, but slave women had no legal recourse; their bodies legally belonged to their owners”. I stand corrected then. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/469 "2014-09-09T17:27:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > _Finally_ someone understands what I’ve been trying to say here. I think we’ve understood all along. What you’ve been trying to say here is very vile, and excuses many of the most evil acts in human history. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/470 "2014-09-09T17:27:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You have a terrible understanding of what makes a good soldier. A good soldier follows orders. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/471 "2014-09-09T17:28:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If a man is shot, you do not imprison the gun. You imprison the man who pulled the trigger. > > What difference is there between a man who is ordered to perform a task by his superior, and a tool which is employed by its wielder to complete a task? There is none; both are acting on the impulse of another, not on their own conscience or what they would wish to do if allowed to choose for himself. So, what you’re saying is that to execute someone for following evil orders would be an atrocity? Well, tough shit – the executioner was ordered to do it; that makes it A-OK! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/472 "2014-09-09T17:29:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think we’ve understood all along. What you’ve been trying to say here is very vile, and excuses many of the most evil acts in human history. Evil is a social fiction created by those who feel a need to establish a greater justification for their own moral stance. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/473 "2014-09-09T17:29:14Z")
According to **Smapti** , the only person who bears any moral responsibility for the Holocaust is Adolf Hitler. All of his underlings were only following orders. According to **Smapti** , Himmler was a “good soldier”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/474 "2014-09-09T17:30:12Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > So, what you’re saying is that to execute someone for following evil orders would be an atrocity? I’m saying there is no such thing as an “evil order” because there is no such thing as “evil”. > [@](#): > > Well, tough shit – the executioner was ordered to do it; that makes it A-OK! Yes. It does. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/475 "2014-09-09T17:30:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A good soldier follows orders. A good soldier disobeys unlawful orders. A good soldier exercises the judgment of a good human being. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/476 "2014-09-09T17:30:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Evil is a social fiction created by those who feel a need to establish a greater justification for their own moral stance. What’s your stance on [gravity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair)? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/477 "2014-09-09T17:31:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > According to **Smapti** , the only person who bears any moral responsibility for the Holocaust is Adolf Hitler. All of his underlings were only following orders. Ultimately, yes - a person in authority is ultimately responsible for all acts committed by those acting under their orders. > [@](#): > > According to **Smapti** , Himmler was a “good soldier”. That depends on the degree to which Himmler was executing Hitler’s orders as opposed to executing his own personal agenda. I am not well-read enough about Himmler’s career to render a judgment on that question. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/478 "2014-09-09T17:32:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > A good soldier disobeys unlawful orders. A good soldier exercises the judgment of a good human being. It is not the role of soldiers to determine the lawfulness of orders. Soldiers are not judges - judges are judges. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/479 "2014-09-09T17:32:53Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > So, what you’re saying is that to execute someone for following evil orders would be an atrocity? > > Well, tough shit – the executioner was ordered to do it; that makes it A-OK! > [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. It does. OK, then, “I was just following orders” is NOT a defense; we’ll damn well string you up anyway. Your sputterings aren’t even consistent with _themselves_, much less with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/480 "2014-09-09T17:33:43Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > What’s your stance on [gravity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair)? Gravity is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=25)