# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/481 "2014-09-09T17:35:45Z")
At least we’re learning a lot about **Smapti**. According to him, slaves were wrong to disobey their masters. Slaves were wrong if they resisted rape. Slaves were wrong if they tried to free themselves. WWII German soldiers and officials were wrong if they disobeyed orders and saved Jewish lives. Jews were wrong if they disobeyed authorities’ orders to submit to imprisonment and murder. Martin Luther King Jr. and his followers were wrong to commit civil disobedience. In short, don’t be close to **Smapti** in the real world. He is a dangerous person who cannot be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/482 "2014-09-09T17:36:38Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > OK, then, “I was just following orders” is NOT a defense; we’ll damn well string you up anyway. It is a defense unless the people responsible for your sentencing decide that it is not. I say that it is. Some other body of law may disagree, and my assertion to the contrary is unlikely to sway them. > [@](#): > > Your sputterings aren’t even consistent with _themselves_, much less with reality. Did you suppose I was asserting that it was an _immutable law of the universe_ that superior orders is a valid defense? I was only stating my opinion. That’s all that _anyone_ is _ever_ doing when they talk about such abstract subjective constructs. There is no such thing as objective justice or good or evil or morality. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/483 "2014-09-09T17:37:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In short, don’t be close to **Smapti** in the real world. He is a dangerous person who cannot be trusted. I think you’d find me to be a very polite and agreeable person. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/484 "2014-09-09T17:37:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is not the role of soldiers to determine the lawfulness of orders. Wrong again. Soldiers are specifically instructed in the duty to refuse unlawful orders. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/485 "2014-09-09T17:39:29Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Wrong again. Soldiers are specifically instructed in the duty to refuse unlawful orders. And they’re also instructed that ultimately it’s a court-martial that will decide if they were right or not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/486 "2014-09-09T17:39:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I think you’d find me to be a very polite and agreeable person. Probably so – especially if I wore a uniform, presented official papers, and asked you which of your neighbors were members of a specific ethnic or religious group, and where were they hiding. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/487 "2014-09-09T17:43:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is a defense unless the people responsible for your sentencing decide that it is not. I say that it is. Some other body of law may disagree, and my assertion to the contrary is unlikely to sway them. > > Did you suppose I was asserting that it was an _immutable law of the universe_ that superior orders is a valid defense? I was only stating my opinion. That’s all that _anyone_ is _ever_ doing when they talk about such abstract subjective constructs. There is no such thing as objective justice or good or evil or morality. Ah, so manmade laws are ephemeral, and only the immutable laws of the universe are to be trusted. Gotcha. Well, then, it’s a good thing that the immutable laws of mathematics are on the [side](http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/how-to/computer-security/why-we-should-encrypt-everyones-email-17162499) [of](https://ciphershed.org/) [privacy](https://minilock.io/). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/488 "2014-09-09T17:44:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is not the role of soldiers to determine the lawfulness of orders. Soldiers are not judges - judges are judges. In the US, military personnel take an oath to obey only lawful orders. It absolutely is the role of US military personnel to determine whether an order is lawful or not. I did so multiple times per day during my service. I was lucky in that all the orders given to me were lawful. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/489 "2014-09-09T17:44:29Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Ah, so manmade laws are ephemeral, and only the immutable laws of the universe are to be trusted. Gotcha. > > Well, then, it’s a good thing that the immutable laws of mathematics are on the [side](http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/how-to/computer-security/why-we-should-encrypt-everyones-email-17162499) [of](https://ciphershed.org/) [privacy](https://minilock.io/). The laws of mathematics are apolitical, and your continued support for drug dealers, pedophiles, cyber-con artists, and terrorists has been noted. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/490 "2014-09-09T17:45:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the US, military personnel take an oath to obey only lawful orders. It absolutely is the role of US military personnel to determine whether an order is lawful or not. > > I did so multiple times per day during my service. I was lucky in that all the orders given to me were lawful. And if you had refused to obey an order that you deemed to be unlawful, you would have been court-martialed, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/491 "2014-09-09T17:45:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And they’re also instructed that ultimately it’s a court-martial that will decide if they were right or not. Er… ah… huh… how can they be “right or not” about a decision they don’t get to make?? Error… Error… Norman, co-ordinate… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/492 "2014-09-09T17:45:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The laws of mathematics are apolitical, and your continued support for drug dealers, pedophiles, and terrorists has been noted. Your direct and admitted support for the pedophiles and terrorists among slave-owners and war criminals is noted by many, many more here than your false accusation in this post. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/493 "2014-09-09T17:46:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is not the role of soldiers to determine the lawfulness of orders. Soldiers are not judges - judges are judges. According to the UCMJ, you are very very wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/494 "2014-09-09T17:46:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your direct and admitted support for the pedophiles and terrorists among slave-owners and war criminals is noted by many, many more here than your false accusation in this post. I “support” no such thing. I acknowledge that it was lawful. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/495 "2014-09-09T17:47:08Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Wrong again. Soldiers are specifically instructed in the duty to refuse unlawful orders. Yeah, but in actual practice they’re really fucked coming and going, because the only place where a grunt will ever get credit rather than strict punishment for disobeying or refusing to immediately and unquestioningly comply with an unlawful order is over the course of the opposing army’s post-victory round of war trials. Which was a pretty awful situation, back in the day. Of course, in these hallowed times of the all-volunteer force, it’s ultimately their own fault for agreeing to putting themselves in this godawful position to begin with. Spoilers : I don’t grok enlistees. Like, at all. But of course, back in **Smapti** ’s world authority should never be questioned and the validity of rebellion is only determined post-facto and contingent on its success. So blindly agreeing to gas the Jews is right, and refusing then getting shot for your trouble is wrong. Ain’t it a beautiful mind ? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/496 "2014-09-09T17:47:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And if you had refused to obey an order that you deemed to be unlawful, you would have been court-martialed, correct? Not necessarily. My superior may have been court-martialed instead. If my superior officer ordered me to kill someone due to their ethnicity, and I refused, I would not be court-martialed, and he certainly would be. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/497 "2014-09-09T17:47:30Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > According to the UCMJ, you are very very wrong. What, according to the UCMJ, happens to a soldier who refuses to obey an order? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/498 "2014-09-09T17:47:44Z")
Yes, but if a bunch of guys with guns tell Smapti that might DOESN’T make right, then he’s morally obligated to accept their reasoning. After all, they’re the guys with guns. Smapti, it turns out that here in the United States a bunch of us have gotten together and decided that might doesn’t make right. And we have the guns and force to back up our opinions. And we’ve passed laws saying that soldiers have the obligation to disobey unlawful orders, and if the soldiers don’t agree we’ll use force to make them agree. So your moral code that would make you a good Nazi or Mongol or Overseer should also make you a good American. We all agree that might doesn’t make right. We outnumber you, and we’re armed and dangerous. So why don’t you shut up and agree? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/499 "2014-09-09T17:47:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > your continued support for drug dealers, pedophiles, cyber-con artists, and terrorists has been noted. Projecting again? Who is the supporter? “You! Go sell that kid some crack!” **Smapti:** Yes, _sir_! **SteveMB:** Screw you! “You! Go screw that kid!” **Smapti:** Yes, _sir_! **SteveMB:** Screw you! “You! Go hack that kid’s account!” **Smapti:** Yes, _sir_! **SteveMB:** Screw you! “You! Go strap a bomb to that kid!” **Smapti:** Yes, _sir_! **SteveMB:** Screw you! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/500 "2014-09-09T17:48:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I “support” no such thing. > > I acknowledge that it was lawful. You stated that it was immoral to resist such behavior. Telling a young woman she should submit to rape if the rapist is her master or a policeman is absolutely supporting the rapist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=26)