# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/501 "2014-09-09T17:49:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What, according to the UCMJ, happens to a soldier who refuses to obey an order? It depends on the order. If the order is unlawful, then nothing happens to a soldier – and he may even be commended. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/502 "2014-09-09T17:49:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What, according to the UCMJ, happens to a soldier who refuses to obey an order? If it is an unlawful order, pretty much nothing. However, you can be punished for following an unlawful order. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/503 "2014-09-09T17:51:26Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yes, but if a bunch of guys with guns tell Smapti that might DOESN’T make right, then he’s morally obligated to accept their reasoning. After all, they’re the guys with guns. Correct, to the degree that they are capable of controlling how I think. > [@](#): > > Smapti, it turns out that here in the United States a bunch of us have gotten together and decided that might doesn’t make right. And we have the guns and force to back up our opinions. Who might they be, and aren’t they concerned about the hypocrisy of using their might to insist that might doesn’t make right? > [@](#): > > We all agree that might doesn’t make right. We outnumber you, and we’re armed and dangerous. So why don’t you shut up and agree? Because I know of no law in this country compelling me to think or behave in that way, but I _do_ know of one that gives me the freedom to disagree with the government. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/504 "2014-09-09T17:51:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It depends on the order. If the order is unlawful, then nothing happens to a soldier – and he may even be commended. For example: > **[Dakota Meyer, a Marine who disregarded orders, is awarded Medal of Honor](https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2011/0915/Dakota-Meyer-a-Marine-who-disregarded-orders-is-awarded-Medal-of-Honor)** > > Dakota Meyer, a former Marine Corps corporal, was awarded the Medal of Honor for saving the lives of 36 US and Afghan troops pinned down in a Taliban ambush in Afghanistan in 2009. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/505 "2014-09-09T17:51:54Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yes, but if a bunch of guys with guns tell Smapti that might DOESN’T make right, then he’s morally obligated to accept their reasoning. After all, they’re the guys with guns. > > Smapti, it turns out that here in the United States a bunch of us have gotten together and decided that might doesn’t make right. And we have the guns and force to back up our opinions. And we’ve passed laws saying that soldiers have the obligation to disobey unlawful orders, and if the soldiers don’t agree we’ll use force to make them agree. > > So your moral code that would make you a good Nazi or Mongol or Overseer should also make you a good American. > > We all agree that might doesn’t make right. We outnumber you, and we’re armed and dangerous. So why don’t you shut up and agree? Indeed. As I noted, his position isn’t even _internally consistent_, and thus doesn’t even rise to the level of being objectively wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/506 "2014-09-09T17:52:49Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Who is the supporter? The person insisting that those people should be given a free license to conceal their activities from the police. I.e. you. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/507 "2014-09-09T17:54:33Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > For example: > > [Dakota Meyer, a Marine who disregarded orders, is awarded Medal of Honor - CSMonitor.com](http://m.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2011/0915/Dakota-Meyer-a-Marine-who-disregarded-orders-is-awarded-Medal-of-Honor) Where in that narrative was the Marine given an unlawful order? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/508 "2014-09-09T17:55:53Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Indeed. As I noted, his position isn’t even _internally consistent_, and thus doesn’t even rise to the level of being objectively wrong. My position is 100% consistent. You fail to appreciate the nuance. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/509 "2014-09-09T17:57:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The person insisting that those people should be given a free license to conceal their activities from the police. I didn’t “give” anybody anything. The laws of mathematics did that. By your own argument, you should therefore accept it as right. Add that one to your list of self-contradictions. (I have a feeling that I’m going to need to reduce this one to an acronym as well. Should it be “AtOtYLoSC” or just “AtOtYLoS” or perhaps “AtOtYLoS-C”?) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/510 "2014-09-09T17:58:04Z")
**Smapti** , you are the most morally bankrupt person I have ever met. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/511 "2014-09-09T17:58:19Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The laws of mathematics did that. By your own argument, you should therefore accept it as right. The laws of mathematics do not grant anyone the right to do anything. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/512 "2014-09-09T17:59:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > My position is 100% consistent. You fail to appreciate the nuance. I’ll grant that your position that rape victims and molested children should not resist their rapists and molesters if they are their masters or policemen is consistent with your position that soldiers should not disobey the orders to take part in atrocities like the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/513 "2014-09-09T17:59:33Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > **Smapti** , you are the most morally bankrupt person I have ever met. Morality is something man invented so that he could feel better about the things that he knows he shouldn’t feel bad about but does. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/514 "2014-09-09T18:10:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The laws of mathematics do not grant anyone the right to do anything. The laws of mathematics confer the power. By your own argument, the power confers the right. PTtKUWtC. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/515 "2014-09-09T18:13:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll grant that your position that rape victims and molested children should not resist their rapists and molesters if they are their masters or policemen is consistent with your position that soldiers should not disobey the orders to take part in atrocities like the Holocaust. Except that it turns out that, oops, the same argument “proves” that the prisoners brought to Nuremberg should have simply confessed and made no attempt (even verbally) to evade whatever punishment the victors saw fit to impose upon them. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/516 "2014-09-09T18:13:25Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The laws of mathematics confer the power. By your own argument, the power confers the right. PTtKUWtC. You seem to be conflating laws with laws. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/517 "2014-09-09T18:14:28Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Except that it turns out that, oops, the same argument “proves” that the prisoners brought to Nuremberg should have simply confessed and made no attempt (even verbally) to evade whatever punishment the victors saw fit to impose upon them. It would have made the postwar trials a lot smoother, do you not agree? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/518 "2014-09-09T18:15:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You seem to be conflating laws with laws. Arguing about whether A is A? Well, OK, even an Objectivist screed would be an improvement… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/519 "2014-09-09T18:17:27Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Arguing about whether A is A? Well, OK, even an Objectivist screed would be an improvement… Words can have more than one meaning. A law of science is not a law in the same sense that a legal law is a law. PTtKUWtC. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/520 "2014-09-09T18:23:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It would have made the postwar trials a lot smoother, do you not agree? Is this why you think rape victims should not resist their rapists, if the rapist is their master or a policeman? Because it would make it go “a lot smoother”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=27)