# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/521 "2014-09-09T18:24:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Words can have more than one meaning. A law of science is not a law in the same sense that a legal law is a law. PTtKUWtC. You’re trying (and failing rather miserably) to obfuscate with an irrelevant semantic distinction. Again: 1. The laws of mathematics, properly applied, confer the power to keep one’s information private. 2. The existence of this power confers the right to use it (by your own argument). 3. Ergo, the right to privacy is guaranteed by nature. QED. PTtKUWtC. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/522 "2014-09-09T18:25:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is this why you think rape victims should not resist their rapists, if the rapist is their master or a policeman? Because it would make it go “a lot smoother”? No, it’s because I think it would be better for the victim in the long run to submit to temporary suffering and live the rest of their life in comfort and wealth after suing the police department for everything it’s worth, than it would be for their assailant to murder them for fighting back. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/523 "2014-09-09T18:29:23Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > 1. The laws of mathematics, properly applied, confer the power to keep one’s information private. So you insist. > [@](#): > > 1. The existence of this power confers the right to use it (by your own argument). The existence of that power confers the _ability_ to use it. Not the right. Nor does it confer immunity from other means of force capable of preventing it. Any living human being possesses the _power_ to steal a six-pack from the 7-Eleven; this does not confer a right to do so, nor does it trump the shopkeep’s power to detain you or to employ the police to do so on his behalf. > [@](#): > > 1. Ergo, the right to privacy is guaranteed by nature. QED. PTtKUWtC. False, as demonstrated above. PTtKUWtC. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/524 "2014-09-09T18:36:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, it’s because I think it would be better for the victim in the long run to submit to temporary suffering and live the rest of their life in comfort and wealth after suing the police department for everything it’s worth, than it would be for their assailant to murder them for fighting back. This is not consistent with the “might makes right” statement you made before. Your “might makes right” philosophy would suggest that the enslaved should obey their masters, even for rape, and people should not resist cop-rapists, because to do otherwise would be to fail to contribute to the good order of society. And how is this valid for an enslaved woman? And when the rapist is a cop, what if she can grab his gun and shoot him (or similarly successfully resist)? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/525 "2014-09-09T18:45:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Morality is something man invented so that he could feel better about the things that he knows he shouldn’t feel bad about but does. Yep. Nothing wrong with slavery, genocide, or murder. :rolleyes: Disgusting. Completely disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/526 "2014-09-09T18:55:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is not consistent with the “might makes right” statement you made before. Your “might makes right” philosophy would suggest that the enslaved should obey their masters, even for rape, and people should not resist cop-rapists, because to do otherwise would be to fail to contribute to the good order of society. It is not in the interest of society that cops be rapists. To that end, it is essential that cops that are racists be exposed and punished by whatever means are available to their victims. However, in terms of self-interest, it is better for the victim whose rapist is a cop to submit in the moment and have their victory later, than to resist and wind up dead for their trouble. > [@](#): > > And how is this valid for an enslaved woman? It is not. If you’re legally enslaved, you’re pretty much fucked. Which, for the record, is why I do not endorse slavery. > [@](#): > > And when the rapist is a cop, what if she can grab his gun and shoot him (or similarly successfully resist)? Then she would be guilty of manslaughter, and much worse off than if she had momentarily relented and taken the department to court later. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/527 "2014-09-09T18:56:55Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yep. Nothing wrong with slavery, genocide, or murder. :rolleyes: Disgusting. Completely disgusting. I don’t recall ever saying that I _liked_ any of those things. You seem to be having trouble comprehending the difference between approving of something and acknowledging its lawfulness. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/528 "2014-09-09T18:59:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is not in the interest of society that cops be rapists. To that end, it is essential that cops that are racists be exposed and punished by whatever means are available to their victims. However, in terms of self-interest, it is better for the victim whose rapist is a cop to submit in the moment and have their victory later, than to resist and wind up dead for their trouble. Then it sounds like automatically complying with the instructions of all authority is not the appropriate action in all cases. > [@](#): > > It is not. If you’re legally enslaved, you’re pretty much fucked. Which, for the record, is why I do not endorse slavery. Then why did you suggest that it’s wrong for an enslaved person to try and free themselves? > [@](#): > > Then she would be guilty of manslaughter, and much worse off than if she had momentarily relented and taken the department to court later. No she wouldn’t. Killing a cop who is trying to rape you is self-defense, not manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/529 "2014-09-09T19:00:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t recall ever saying that I _liked_ any of those things. You seem to be having trouble comprehending the difference between approving of something and acknowledging its lawfulness. You’ve said that it would be wrong for a soldier to disobey an order to participate in genocide. And that it would be wrong for a slave to disobey their master. This goes beyond just saying these actions are lawful. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/530 "2014-09-09T19:10:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then it sounds like automatically complying with the instructions of all authority is not the appropriate action in all cases. Non sequitur. > [@](#): > > Then why did you suggest that it’s wrong for an enslaved person to try and free themselves? Because such an act would be unlawful. > [@](#): > > No she wouldn’t. Killing a cop who is trying to rape you is self-defense, not manslaughter. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/531 "2014-09-09T19:10:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then she would be guilty of manslaughter Wrong Again. (Well, that one’s short enough… but will probably be needed often enough that I might as well make it “WA” from now on.) > [@Smapti](#): > > Non sequitur. Geez, if you could have reduced your entire philosophy to two words all along, why didn’t you do it before? Are you like Roger Rabbit, waiting until it’s funny? Because we’ve already been laughing (_at_ you, not with you) for some time. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/532 "2014-09-09T19:11:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’ve said that it would be wrong for a soldier to disobey an order to participate in genocide. And that it would be wrong for a slave to disobey their master. This goes beyond just saying these actions are lawful. I don’t follow you. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/533 "2014-09-09T19:12:33Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Wrong Again. (Well, that one’s short enough… but will probably be needed often enough that I might as well make it “WA” from now on.) Has she not slaughtered a man? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/534 "2014-09-09T19:16:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Has she not slaughtered a man? No. In the situation posited, she has removed a piece of vermin. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/535 "2014-09-09T19:17:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t follow you. I think you are suggesting that there is no difference between what is “legal” and what is “right”, and no difference between what is “illegal” and what is “wrong”. Is this so? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/536 "2014-09-09T19:18:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Maybe. No, definitely. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/537 "2014-09-09T19:18:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think you are suggesting that there is no difference between what is “legal” and what is “right”, and no difference between what is “illegal” and what is “wrong”. Is this so? Mostly. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/538 "2014-09-09T19:19:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think you are suggesting that there is no difference between what is “legal” and what is “right”, and no difference between what is “illegal” and what is “wrong”. Is this so? Indeed. [QUOTE=Isaac Asimov] “What is your definition of justice?” “Justice, Elijah, is that which exists when all the laws are enforced.” Fastolfe nodded. “A good definition, Mr. Baley, for a robot… A human being can recognize the fact that, on the basis of an abstract moral code, some laws may be bad ones and their enforcement unjust. What do you say, R. Daneel?” “An unjust law,” said R. Daneel evenly, “is a contradiction in terms.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/539 "2014-09-09T19:20:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t follow you. That they are “lawful” only refers to their relationship with the relevant legal code of the jurisdiction. By saying it is “wrong” for a slave to disobey their master, try to free themselves, or resist a rape, you are making a judgment about the morality of these actions. That’s what the words “right” and “wrong” mean in this context. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/540 "2014-09-09T19:21:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Mostly. What are the exceptions? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=28)