# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/561 "2014-09-10T05:52:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Of all the things to align one’s moral compass to, you’ve made one of the worst choices. If we share general assumptions like “genocide should be avoided”, “mass murder should be avoided”, “slavery should be avoided”, “oppression and persecution should be avoided”, then your chosen guide, “might makes right”, is an absolutely terrible one. “Might makes right” has a history of genocide, mass murder, slavery, and oppression and persecution, far more so than (for example) a humanist moral compass. Those things should be avoided. Ignoring the basic nature of human behavior, and pretending that morals and ethics are decrees handed down by some paranormal figure instead of human creations meant to justify that behavior, won’t make those things go away. No “evil” person was ever persuaded to change their ways by being told that they were a bad man and should stop being so naughty. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/562 "2014-09-10T05:54:49Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Yes, this is part of the reason why the underlying foundation (elevation of the state to godlike status) of your position is fundamentally defective. I do no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/563 "2014-09-10T08:06:56Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Yours is aligned to “Might makes Right”. This is fallacious. It is how the world works whether we like it or not. > [@](#): > > We are each responsible for our own actions. Someone ordering us to do wrong is wrong of them, but it is our responsibility and our failure if we do that wrong. There is no excuse in the Universe that makes you right in doing wrong, or even without guilt, no matter who it was who told you to do it. All actions are the responsibility of the person who decides to commit them, not the fault of the tools they use to do them. > [@](#): > > If your boss tells you to kill a hobo that won’t leave your place of employment, and throw his body in the dumpster out back, you are both guilty of murder. It is not his fault alone, nor are you guilt free in carrying out those instructions simply because someone in a position of power over you ordered you to do it. Legally, yes. In reality, I have a job because I have agreed to sell my free will to another, and I am not responsible for the work my employer uses me to do. > [@](#): > > If you persist in being unable to see this distinction, then you are morally and mentally crippled. No, I’m just a realist. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/564 "2014-09-10T08:13:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Legally, yes. In reality, I have a job because I have agreed to sell my free will to another, and I am not responsible for the work my employer uses me to do. Yes, yes you are. I get how it could be nice to abdicate all responsibility the way you do because hey, they’re mightier and you’re just a little old cog. But that is, of course, bullshit. You’re not a tool, you’re a grown man with a working cortex. The only one responsible for what you do at any given time is you. Your moral compass is evidently shot to shit, and that’s an shame, not to mention thoroughly unpleasant for the bystanders - but it’s on you, dawg. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/565 "2014-09-10T08:50:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > All actions are the responsibility of the person who decides to commit them, not the fault of the tools they use to do them. While you _are_ a tool, you are also a person, who has a responsibility to not commit atrocities just because someone asked you to. An individual only has a limited capacity to do evil. The Breiviks and McVeys of the world might be able to kill a hundred people, but to kill a million - to commit a Holocaust or a Rape of Nanking - they need people like you, cowards who pretend they had no other choice than to actively aid them in their crimes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/566 "2014-09-10T09:25:14Z")
**Smapti** , if your boss told you to murder a hobo in an alley, would you do it? What if a government official or police officer told you to do it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/567 "2014-09-10T09:27:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > All actions are the responsibility of the person who decides to commit them, not the fault of the tools they use to do them. When someone tells you to do something, you still have the decision to do it or not. So if your boss tells you to commit murder, and you do it, then you’re responsible – because you decided to commit murder. > [@](#): > > Legally, yes. In reality, I have a job because I have agreed to sell my free will to another, and I am not responsible for the work my employer uses me to do. It’s not legal to buy and sell “free will” to another. Whatever your job, you have not agreed to sell your free will. > [@](#): > > No, I’m just a realist. You are not describing the real world. Your view of reality is extremely warped. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/568 "2014-09-10T09:36:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > All actions are the responsibility of the person who decides to commit them, not the fault of the tools they use to do them. So you are saying you are a tool? That explains a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/569 "2014-09-10T10:04:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not legal to buy and sell “free will” to another. Whatever your job, you have not agreed to sell your free will. By definition, that is what employment is - accepting money in exchange for doing what someone else tells you to do instead of what you want to do. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/570 "2014-09-10T10:08:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > While you _are_ a tool, you are also a person, who has a responsibility to not commit atrocities just because someone asked you to. An individual only has a limited capacity to do evil. You have exactly as much capacity to do evil as you do to do magic. > [@](#): > > The Breiviks and McVeys of the world might be able to kill a hundred people, but to kill a million - to commit a Holocaust or a Rape of Nanking - they need people like you, cowards who pretend they had no other choice than to actively aid them in their crimes. The laws of Germany and Japan didn’t define those activities as crimes, and they werent halted by sitting their leaders down and telling them they were being naughty and Jesus was going to be cross with them. They were stopped by military force, because might makes right. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/571 "2014-09-10T10:14:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **Smapti** , if your boss told you to murder a hobo in an alley, would you do it? I would refuse because that’s not in my job description and I haven’t received proper training on how to kill a hobo, and since my boss in this scenario is the kind of person who would order an employee to kill a hobo, he’d probably fire me for insubordination and get another employee to do it. Then I’d go to the employee association and tell them why I was fired, and they’d reinstate me and give me back pay for the time I was out of work, and my boss would probably lose his job. > [@](#): > > What if a government official or police officer told you to do it? Then my own life would probably be in danger if I disobeyed, so I’d do it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/572 "2014-09-10T10:52:08Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Yes, this is part of the reason why the underlying foundation (elevation of the state to godlike status) of your position is fundamentally defective. > [@Smapti](#): > > I do no such thing. You really needed to try that line _before_ the five-minute window expired for memory-holing all the evidence to the contrary you’ve been generating. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/573 "2014-09-10T10:58:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > By definition, that is what employment is - accepting money in exchange for doing what someone else tells you to do instead of what you want to do. No it’s not. As you describe in your next post. You’re contradicting yourself. Employment is accepting money in exchange for doing certain tasks. Except for the remnants of slavery, there are no cases today where those certain tasks include any possible thing you are told to do. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/574 "2014-09-10T10:58:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Legally, yes. In reality, I have a job because I have agreed to sell my free will to another, and I am not responsible for the work my employer uses me to do. You’re contradicting yourself again. The mighty government has decreed that if you obey the order, you are as guilty as the order-giver. By your own argument, you must forthwith bow to this decree and quit pretending otherwise. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No it’s not. As you describe in your next post. You’re contradicting yourself. To be fair, for Smapti it’s significant progress if you have to refer to two different posts to find a logical contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/575 "2014-09-10T10:59:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then my own life would probably be in danger if I disobeyed, so I’d do it. This meets the coward and idiot part in the OP. You do realize that if you did this, you would most likely be prosecuted for murder, right? That obeying this police officer or government official would be breaking the law? So which is more important – obeying the law or obeying authority? Sometimes they conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/576 "2014-09-10T11:05:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This meets the coward and idiot part in the OP. You do realize that if you did this, you would most likely be prosecuted for murder, right? That obeying this police officer or government official would be breaking the law? Addendum: In the case where the servile obedience is to a government authority and not just any old person in charge, the title trifecta is achieved. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/577 "2014-09-10T12:04:56Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > You’re contradicting yourself again. The mighty government has decreed that if you obey the order, you are as guilty as the order-giver. By your own argument, you must forthwith bow to this decree and quit pretending otherwise. Cite the law that requires me to hold the same opinion as the majority of voters. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/578 "2014-09-10T12:05:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This meets the coward and idiot part in the OP. You do realize that if you did this, you would most likely be prosecuted for murder, right? That obeying this police officer or government official would be breaking the law? Depends. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/579 "2014-09-10T12:07:19Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > You really needed to try that line _before_ the five-minute window expired for memory-holing all the evidence to the contrary you’ve been generating. Cite for my saying the state is God? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/580 "2014-09-10T12:14:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Depends. On what? In the scenario I described to you – a police officer stops you, leads you to an alley, points to a hobo, and says “kill him”-- this would definitely be breaking the law to obey him. So what is the proper response when the law and authority conflict? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=30)