# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/601 "2014-09-10T16:44:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Pretty sure the sale of organs is very strictly verboten So organ transplants are free now? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/602 "2014-09-10T16:47:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We haven’t addressed my “moral system” in this thread. I am discussing what the nature of the world _is_. The fact that I acknowledge that this is how it is doesn’t mean I like it. I don’t like that I’m going to die one day, but that doesn’t mean I can simply choose to believe I’m immortal. You’ve used words like right and wrong, which imply judgment and opinion. If you haven’t been talking about your moral system, then you’ve been totally incoherent. So what is your moral system? What do you consider right and wrong? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/603 "2014-09-10T16:48:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If my life is being threatened? Sorry, my life is worth more to me than that of some hobo. This is where the idiot part comes in. By complying with this asshole cop you’re putting your life and liberty at much greater risk – almost certain murder by cop to cover his tracks, or arrest and imprisonment – then by attempting deceit or escape. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/604 "2014-09-10T16:50:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’ve used words like right and wrong, which imply judgment and opinion. If you haven’t been talking about your moral system, then you’ve been totally incoherent. > > So what is your moral system? That every person has the right to live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society, and that anything which stands in the way of that is an obstacle which it is the just goal of government to eradicate. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/605 "2014-09-10T16:51:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is where the idiot part comes in. By complying with this asshole cop you’re putting your life and liberty at much greater risk – almost certain murder by cop to cover his tracks, or arrest and imprisonment – then by attempting deceit or escape. And by refusing to comply I’m dead. How is death a better outcome than arrest and imprisonment? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/606 "2014-09-10T17:08:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And by refusing to comply I’m dead. No, because you might escape, or deceive the cop through trickery, or find some other way to get out alive – if you comply, he’ll probably kill you anyway. By failing to consider any other options, and defaulting to “obey the authority”, you’ve once again demonstrated your foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/607 "2014-09-10T17:09:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That every person has the right to live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society, and that anything which stands in the way of that is an obstacle which it is the just goal of government to eradicate. This contradicts your statement that it is wrong for a slave to disobey their master, or try and free themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/608 "2014-09-10T17:12:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This contradicts your statement that it is wrong for a slave to disobey their master, or try and free themselves. You people keep seeing contradictions where none exist. In a state where slavery is legal, it is wrong for a slave to disobey their master because the law clearly defines them as property. I do not _like_ that this is the case, and that is why I oppose slavery; however, the fact that the law is the law does not changed merely based on my wishing the law were otherwise, and it would be dishonest of me to choose to believe something I know to be false because the false belief pleases me more than the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/609 "2014-09-10T17:14:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So organ transplants are free now? I don’t think they are (no idea - but then I live in soshulist universal healthcare hell), but in any event you’re not buying an organ (which _they_ will decide whether you get to receive or not, and judging by the state of donor lists thanks to fuckwits like you, the chances of you reaching the top of the pile before you keel over are slim), you’re paying the doctor’s time, skill, education and malpractice insurance. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/610 "2014-09-10T17:16:45Z")
**SMAPTI’S PUZZLE KORNER!** See if you can figure out today’s brainteaser, kids! While driving one day, **Smapti** is pulled over by a police officer (completely unfairly, of course, as his registration is always up-to-date and he never drives faster than five miles under the posted speed limit). After checking his license and recognizing him as **Smapti** , the notorious coward fascist idiot who’ll do anything he is told to do by an authority figure, Office de Sade decides to have a little fun. “Okay sir, what I’m going to need you to do right now, is to exit your vehicle, and proceed to walk in an orderly fashion out onto the highway, and at that time I’m going to need you to let yourself be run over by a tractor-trailer.” \*\* _What does Smapti do?_\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/611 "2014-09-10T17:20:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t think they are (no idea - but then I live in soshulist universal healthcare hell), but in any event you’re not buying an organ (which _they_ will decide whether you get to receive or not, and judging by the state of donor lists thanks to fuckwits like you, the chances of you reaching the top of the pile before you keel over are slim), you’re paying the doctor’s time, skill, education and malpractice insurance. But you’re paying. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/612 "2014-09-10T17:22:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You people keep seeing contradictions where none exist. > > In a state where slavery is legal, it is wrong for a slave to disobey their master because the law clearly defines them as property. I do not _like_ that this is the case, and that is why I oppose slavery; however, the fact that the law is the law does not changed merely based on my wishing the law were otherwise, and it would be dishonest of me to choose to believe something I know to be false because the false belief pleases me more than the truth. Here’s the contradiction. If your moral guide is “That every person has the right to live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society”, as you’ve stated, then it is absolutely morally _right_ for a slave to try and free themselves – because that might be the only way they can “live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society” – by escaping to some place in which they can do this. And it is absolutely morally right for a soldier ordered to take part in genocide to disobey the order – and morally right for a low-level German bureacrat to disobey instructions and look the other way when a Jewish family tries to escape – because, in this way, they are contributing, in some way, to allowing people to “live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society”. Your answers to the questions about slavery and about genocide totally contradict the moral guide you’ve put forward. And all of your contradictions err on one side – obeying authority rather than allowing persons to “live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/613 "2014-09-10T17:23:30Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > \*\* > _What does Smapti do?_\*\* Smapti assumes that he is on Candid Camera, since he knows the officer’s dash cam and/or body cam is recording this interaction and it makes no sense for a police officer to behave this way when he knows he is being monitored. He asks the officer if he’s being serious, and if the officer becomes aggressive, he hits the gas, calls 911 on his phone, and reports that he is being chased by a lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/614 "2014-09-10T17:24:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Smapti assumes that he is on Candid Camera, since he knows the officer’s dash cam and/or body cam is recording this interaction and it makes no sense for a police officer to behave this way when he knows he is being monitored. He asks the officer if he’s being serious, and if the officer becomes aggressive, he hits the gas, calls 911 on his phone, and reports that he is being chased by a lunatic. Why didn’t you consider an answer like this for the hobo hypothetical? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/615 "2014-09-10T17:26:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Here’s the contradiction. If your moral guide is “That every person has the right to live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society”, as you’ve stated, then it is absolutely morally _right_ for a slave to try and free themselves – because that might be the only way they can “live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society” – by escaping to some place in which they can do this. Not according to the government which says it’s legal to enslave them, and which is not likely to change its mind simply because the slave insists otherwise. What makes my moral belief more inherently true than that of that government? Nothing. > [@](#): > > And it is absolutely morally right for a soldier ordered to take part in genocide to disobey the order – and morally right for a low-level German bureacrat to disobey instructions and look the other way when a Jewish family tries to escape – because, in this way, they are allowing people to “live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society”. Not according to the government which says it’s legal to commit genocide, and which is not likely to change its mind simply because the soldier insists otherwise. What makes my moral belief more inherently true than that of that government? Nothing. > [@](#): > > Your answers to the questions about slavery and about genocide totally contradict the moral guide you’ve put forward. And all of your contradictions err on one side – obeying authority rather than allowing persons to “live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society”. The fact that the world is not what I wish the would would be is not a “contradiction”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/616 "2014-09-10T17:27:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why didn’t you consider an answer like this for the hobo hypothetical? The scenario was too vague and did not provide me with a ready means of escaping the interaction. ---
**Author:** ![elninost0rm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ed655f/32.png) [@elninost0rm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elninost0rm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/617 "2014-09-10T17:28:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Smapti assumes that he is on Candid Camera, since he knows the officer’s dash cam and/or body cam is recording this interaction and it makes no sense for a police officer to behave this way when he knows he is being monitored. He asks the officer if he’s being serious, and if the officer becomes aggressive, he hits the gas, calls 911 on his phone, and reports that he is being chased by a lunatic. Nice dodge. Let’s assume that you’re NOT on Candid Camera and the cop, for lack of a better term, is god damn crazy. That said, he still represents the legal authority that you hold so dear. With all of that being true in this hypothetical, do you walk into the street to be hit the by tractor trailer, as commanded by your mast–I mean, the police offer? Yes, of course. You can sue the police department for all it’s worth after this incident. Ignoring the fact that you’re fucking dead, of course. At least your family will benefit, I guess? Of course your answer to this whole crazy hypothetical is that you don’t have the MIGHT to resist this symbol of authority, so any action you might take would be pointless, after all. Might as well walk into the street, right? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/618 "2014-09-10T17:28:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > That every person has the right to live their life in the way that _makes them happy_ and which allows them to _most effectively utilize their innate talents_ to _the benefit of society_ Two mutually orthogonal definitions in one statement is par for your course, but three is above and beyond the call. > [@](#): > > and that anything which stands in the way of _that_ Are we on the brink of a new understanding of the basic “three equals one” mystery of the Christian faith? > [@](#): > > is an obstacle which it is the _just_ goal of government to eradicate You’ve been going around in circles for the whole thread, but never quite so tight a circle as succinctly describing government goals as “just” and defining “justice” as the government’s dictates. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/619 "2014-09-10T17:28:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Not according to the government which says it’s legal to enslave them, and which is not likely to change its mind simply because the slave insists otherwise. What makes my moral belief more inherently true than that of that government? Nothing. I wasn’t asking about the government’s opinion of what’s right – I was asking about your opinion. And your opinion is a contradiction of your earlier statement about your moral guideline. > [@](#): > > Not according to the government which says it’s legal to commit genocide, and which is not likely to change its mind simply because the soldier insists otherwise. What makes my moral belief more inherently true than that of that government? Nothing. I wasn’t asking about the government’s opinion of what’s right – I was asking about your opinion. And your opinion is a contradiction of your earlier statement about your moral guideline. > [@](#): > > The fact that the world is not what I wish the would would be is not a “contradiction”. I’m not asking about what you wish the world would be, I asked about your opinion on what’s right and wrong in various circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/620 "2014-09-10T17:30:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > But you’re paying. So ? You’re also paying for a ticket to Springsteen, does that constitute “buying a guitar” in your fucked up world ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=32)