# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/621 "2014-09-10T17:31:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The scenario was too vague and did not provide me with a ready means of escaping the interaction. Alright, I’ll modify the hypothetical to be idiot-compatible: You are on a busy street in the evening in NYC. A cop (or someone in a cop’s uniform) grabs you by the elbow and steers you to the mouth of an alley. You are not yet in the alley, just in front of it. No one is in the alley but a sleeping hobo. People are walking and driving down the street. The cop says, softly, “kill that hobo”, and holds out a knife, handle-first, towards you. What do you do? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/622 "2014-09-10T17:32:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Here’s the contradiction. If your moral guide is “That every person has the right to live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society”, as you’ve stated, then it is absolutely morally _right_ for a slave to try and free themselves – because that might be the only way they can “live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society” – by escaping to some place in which they can do this. > [@Smapti](#): > > Not according to the government which says it’s legal to enslave them Wrong again. The slaver government is declaring happiness, talents, and social benefit to be irrelevant. Ergo, the government is wrong, and you are an idiot (for failing to correctly note this fact), a coward (for acquiescing) and a fascist (for willingly acquiescing). Come clean. Admit that this thread is just an exercise in trollish performance art. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/623 "2014-09-10T17:35:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I wasn’t asking about the government’s opinion of what’s right – I was asking about your opinion. And your opinion is a contradiction of your earlier statement about your moral guideline. And I stated my opinion. And my opinion contradicts with the opinion of that hypothetical government. My opinion is not inherently truer than theirs simply because it is mine. > [@](#): > > I’m not asking about what you wish the world would be You pretty much are, by insisting that my personal beliefs about how government _should_ operate conform to all possible permutations of how governments _do_ operate. > [@](#): > > I asked about your opinion on what’s right and wrong in various circumstances. And I gave it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/624 "2014-09-10T17:36:35Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Wrong again. The slaver government is declaring happiness, talents, and social benefit to be irrelevant. Ergo, the government is wrong The government is wrong because it disagrees with _me_? I had no idea that my personal opinions comprised an objective standard of truth. > [@](#): > > Come clean. Admit that this thread is just an exercise in trollish performance art. I am not trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/625 "2014-09-10T17:38:57Z")
> [@elninost0rm](#): > > Nice dodge. > > Let’s assume that you’re NOT on Candid Camera and the cop, for lack of a better term, is god damn crazy. That said, he still represents the legal authority that you hold so dear. > > With all of that being true in this hypothetical, do you walk into the street to be hit the by tractor trailer, as commanded by your mast–I mean, the police offer? > > Yes, of course. You can sue the police department for all it’s worth after this incident. Ignoring the fact that you’re fucking dead, of course. At least your family will benefit, I guess? > > Of course your answer to this whole crazy hypothetical is that you don’t have the MIGHT to resist this symbol of authority, so any action you might take would be pointless, after all. Might as well walk into the street, right? I _do_ have the might to resist this person who is not acting in a legitimate display of authority. I have the ability to hit the gas, call 911, and inform them that I am being chased by a police officer who has ordered me to commit suicide. More police will join the chase and I will surrender to them and be arrested (which I will deserve for resisting an officer), and ultimately the dash/body cams will confirm my story and I will be released. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/626 "2014-09-10T17:39:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > So ? You’re also paying for a ticket to Springsteen, does that constitute “buying a guitar” in your fucked up world ? Springsteen buys his guitars with the money he earns from his music, doesn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/627 "2014-09-10T17:41:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You are on a busy street in the evening in NYC. A cop (or someone in a cop’s uniform) grabs you by the elbow and steers you to the mouth of an alley. You are not yet in the alley, just in front of it. No one is in the alley but a sleeping hobo. People are walking and driving down the street. The cop says, softly, “kill that hobo”, and holds out a knife, handle-first, towards you. Well, I can’t retreat if the cop is holding me by the elbow. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/628 "2014-09-10T17:41:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The government is wrong because it disagrees with _me_? No, the government is wrong because it disagrees with the fundamental stated bases\* of morality. PTtKUPtC. \*The fact that the three stated bases are not entirely compatible is irrelevant to this case, as all three are in agreement in this specific scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/629 "2014-09-10T17:42:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The government is wrong because it disagrees with _me_? (emphasis in original) > [@Smapti](#): > > I _do_ have the might to resist this person who is not acting in a _legitimate_ display of authority. (emphasis added) You forgot to put [the United Way update](http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-10-02/) between your statements again. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/630 "2014-09-10T17:43:21Z")
Possibly, yes, though at this point in his career I figure people just fall over to try and gift him guitars. And of course the surgeon doesn’t buy the heart he’s plugging into your chest. So I guess what I’m saying is : what the fuck is your point ? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/631 "2014-09-10T17:44:14Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > No, the government is wrong because it disagrees with the fundamental stated bases\* of morality. PTtKUPtC. What the hell are the “fundamental stated bases of morality”? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/632 "2014-09-10T17:45:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Possibly, yes, though at this point in his career I figure people just fall over to try and gift him guitars. And of course the surgeon doesn’t buy the heart he’s plugging into your chest. No, he got it for free from some sucker who got talked into “donating” his parts to a for-profit corporation. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/633 "2014-09-10T17:49:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What the hell are the “fundamental stated bases of morality”? > [@Smapti](#): > > That every person has the right to live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society, and that anything which stands in the way of that is an obstacle which it is the just goal of government to eradicate. PTtKUWtC. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/634 "2014-09-10T17:53:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, he got it for free from some sucker who got talked into “donating” his parts to a for-profit corporation. So we’ve now established that organs are not in fact being sold, or bought. Glad we could clear that up. We are, after all, about fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/635 "2014-09-10T17:53:49Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > PTtKUWtC. My opinions are not the “fundamental stated bases” of anything. They are my opinions, nothing more. They don’t form the backbone of any fundamental law of the universe. Noone is going to suddenly convert like the naïve heathen in a Jack Chick tract just because I tell them that they’re not conforming to what I believe they ought to. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/636 "2014-09-10T18:03:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And I stated my opinion. You stated that it’s wrong, which contradicts your statements about your moral guideline. And when I pointed that out, you said that you were just talking about what the governments would say. So which is it? Is it you’re opinion that it’s morally wrong for a slave to try and free themselves, or for a German bureacrat to allow a Jewish family to escape? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/637 "2014-09-10T18:04:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Well, I can’t retreat if the cop is holding me by the elbow. Yes you can, unless you’re an incredible weakling. For the purposes of the hypothetical, your physical strength is average, and the cop’s is not significantly greater. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/638 "2014-09-10T18:08:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You stated that it’s wrong, which contradicts your statements about your moral guideline. And when I pointed that out, you said that you were just talking about what the governments would say. So which is it? Is it you’re opinion that it’s morally wrong for a slave to try and free themselves, or for a German bureacrat to allow a Jewish family to escape? It’s my opinion that the government under which they lived would consider it wrong, and their opinion on the topic trumps mine. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/639 "2014-09-10T18:09:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes you can, unless you’re an incredible weakling. For the purposes of the hypothetical, your physical strength is average, and the cop’s is not significantly greater. Am I also the Flash, and capable of outrunning the bullets he fires at me when I break away? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/640 "2014-09-10T18:15:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s my opinion that the government under which they lived would consider it wrong, and their opinion on the topic trumps mine. If you’re going to just concede the description in the thread title, we might be able to wrap things up. Unless it’s just too much fun to continue pointing and laughing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=33)