# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/641 "2014-09-10T18:18:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Am I also the Flash, and capable of outrunning the bullets he fires at me when I break away? How do you know he’ll shoot you in clear view of dozens of people? How do you know he even has a real gun? How do you know he’s a real cop? But we’re past the point of the hypothetical. The point was to see how blindly you’ll obey authority – it turns out pretty blindly… even to the point where you’d clearly risk your own life to greater degree rather than not obey authority. You seemed to catch on to this for **Vinyl Turnip** ’s scenario. It’s good that you’re not in the military – you’d make a terrible, awful soldier/sailor/airman/marine. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/642 "2014-09-10T18:19:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s my opinion that the government under which they lived would consider it wrong, and their opinion on the topic trumps mine. I didn’t ask you about the government – what’s your opinion about the action itself? Suppose you don’t know anything about the government, or even if a government exists – is it wrong for a slave to try and escape their master? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/643 "2014-09-10T18:23:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How do you know he’ll shoot you in clear view of dozens of people? How do you know he even has a real gun? How do you know he’s a real cop? > > But we’re past the point of the hypothetical. The point was to see how blindly you’ll obey authority – it turns out pretty blindly… even to the point where you’d clearly risk your own life to greater degree rather than not obey authority. The situation is even worse that that. This scenario establishes that Smapti would obey _knowing full well that the cop either has no gun or lacks the nerve to fire it_ (otherwise, he’d simply kill the hobo his own self). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/644 "2014-09-10T18:32:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I didn’t ask you about the government – what’s your opinion about the action itself? Suppose you don’t know anything about the government, or even if a government exists – is it wrong for a slave to try and escape their master? If I know nothing about the government or whether a government exists, then I cannot answer the question, as I lack the relevant data. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/645 "2014-09-10T18:33:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If I know nothing about the government or whether a government exists, then I cannot answer the question, as I lack the relevant data. The relevant data are clearly stated in the question: 1. A slave 2. Wishes to escape 3. A slavemaster ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/646 "2014-09-10T18:35:57Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The relevant data are clearly stated in the question: > > 1. A slave > 2. Wishes to escape > 3. A slavemaster This is insufficient data to answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/647 "2014-09-10T18:38:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If I know nothing about the government or whether a government exists, then I cannot answer the question, as I lack the relevant data. The question of morality, like your moral guideline, exists apart from the existence of governments. “That every person has the right to live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society” is a decent moral guideline, and offers enough to answer the question about whether it’s right or wrong for a slave to try and escape. Let’s say you found yourself in some unfortunate place that still had slavery. Just before the armed guards you hired to keep you safe are going to escort you back to the airport for your flight back on a private jet to home and safety, you have the opportunity to surreptitiously disable the locked gate at a slave plantation so that some slaves can escape. Would you disable the lock at no risk to yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/648 "2014-09-10T18:46:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Let’s say you found yourself in some unfortunate place that still had slavery. Just before the armed guards you hired to keep you safe are going to escort you back to the airport for your flight back on a private jet to home and safety, you have the opportunity to surreptitiously disable the locked gate at a slave plantation so that some slaves can escape. Would you disable the lock at no risk to yourself? No, because I have absolutely no way of knowing that it _will_ be “at no risk to myself”, nor any way of knowing that any slaves that escape as a result of my action will be able to stay escaped instead of just being recaptured and suffering an even worse fate for trying to run. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/649 "2014-09-10T19:06:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, because I have absolutely no way of knowing that it _will_ be “at no risk to myself”, nor any way of knowing that any slaves that escape as a result of my action will be able to stay escaped instead of just being recaptured and suffering an even worse fate for trying to run. **Smapti is a coward, a fascist and an idiot** ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/650 "2014-09-10T19:12:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, because I have absolutely no way of knowing that it _will_ be “at no risk to myself”, nor any way of knowing that any slaves that escape as a result of my action will be able to stay escaped instead of just being recaptured and suffering an even worse fate for trying to run. As to the first part, you’re a coward – the scenario I laid out was as safe to you as it possibly could be. As to the second part – shouldn’t that be up to the slaves? If they want to risk it, shouldn’t that be their choice, and not yours? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/651 "2014-09-10T19:17:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As to the first part, you’re a coward – the scenario I laid out was as safe to you as it possibly could be. Unless your hypothetical is granting me psychic powers, then I have no way of knowing that the authorities in this country won’t tie the escape to me and arrest me between when I break the lock and when I leave their airspace, or that my home country won’t extradite me later. > [@](#): > > As to the second part – shouldn’t that be up to the slaves? If they want to risk it, shouldn’t that be their choice, and not yours? If I make the decision to enable them to escape, then I’m responsible for what happens to them afterward. As I have explained, responsibility for an action falls on the person who makes the decision that that action should occur. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/652 "2014-09-10T19:20:17Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > **Smapti is a coward, a fascist and an idiot** In alphabetical order, no less! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/653 "2014-09-10T19:24:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Unless your hypothetical is granting me psychic powers, then I have no way of knowing that the authorities in this country won’t tie the escape to me and arrest me between when I break the lock and when I leave their airspace You have loyal armed guards (who are not locals) who are promised a big fat bonus when you get home safe. The country you’re in has a barely-to-non-functioning security apparatus. > [@](#): > > , or that my home country won’t extradite me later. Your home country is not hypothetical. I’m sure you’re well aware that the USA, Canada, and most other countries on earth would not extradite someone for the “crime” of helping to free slaves. > [@](#): > > If I make the decision to enable them to escape, then I’m responsible for what happens to them afterward. No you’re not. You’re leaving it up to them. They still can choose to stay, or choose to escape. You are granting a choice that they did not have before, but you are not responsible for which choice they make, or for what happens after they make that choice. > [@](#): > > As I have explained, responsibility for an action falls on the person who makes the decision that that action should occur. Disabling the lock is not making “the decision that the action should occur”. The enslaved people will make that decision for themselves. You’re not telling them to escape or to stay – you’re just disabling the lock so they can choose for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/654 "2014-09-10T19:27:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, because I have absolutely no way of knowing that it _will_ be “at no risk to myself”, nor any way of knowing that any slaves that escape as a result of my action will be able to stay escaped instead of just being recaptured and suffering an even worse fate for trying to run. This still sounds like dodging the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/655 "2014-09-10T19:35:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You have loyal armed guards (who are not locals) who are promised a big fat bonus when you get home safe. The country you’re in has a barely-to-non-functioning security apparatus. That’s good to know. > [@](#): > > Your home country is not hypothetical. I’m sure you’re well aware that the USA, Canada, and most other countries on earth would not extradite someone for the “crime” of helping to free slaves. I’m not aware of that being a specific policy of the US government. > [@](#): > > No you’re not. You’re leaving it up to them. They still can choose to stay, or choose to escape. You are granting a choice that they did not have before, but you are not responsible for which choice they make, or for what happens after they make that choice. > > Disabling the lock is not making “the decision that the action should occur”. The enslaved people will make that decision for themselves. You’re not telling them to escape or to stay – you’re just disabling the lock so they can choose for themselves To “leave it up to them” would be to take no action. By breaking the lock I am encouraging them to escape and making myself responsible for the consequences of their actions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/656 "2014-09-10T19:37:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not aware of that being a specific policy of the US government. Thus confirming the “idiot” status, if that was ever in doubt. Clarification [here](http://extradition.uslegal.com/extraditable-offenses/). In essence, even if the US has an extradition treaty with a country, the offense must be considered criminal _in the US_ for the US to consider extradition. ‘Freeing slaves’ is not a crime in the US, so it would never be extraditable. > [@](#): > > To “leave it up to them” would be to take no action. By breaking the lock I am encouraging them to escape and making myself responsible for the consequences of their actions. No. Taking no action means they have no choice, because they can’t escape. If you take action and disable the lock, you’re giving them that choice. They still make the decision, and they are still responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/657 "2014-09-10T19:37:57Z")
Let’s ignore practicalities for a moment. Do you think slavery is a good or bad thing? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/658 "2014-09-10T19:40:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > By breaking the lock I am encouraging them to escape You make it sound like that’s a bad thing. > [@Smapti](#): > > and making myself responsible for the consequences of their actions. And? So what? Are you afraid of that? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/659 "2014-09-10T19:46:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Thus confirming the “idiot” status, if that was ever in doubt. Clarification [here](http://extradition.uslegal.com/extraditable-offenses/). In essence, even if the US has an extradition treaty with a country, the offense must be considered criminal _in the US_ for the US to consider extradition. ‘Freeing slaves’ is not a crime in the US, so it would never be extraditable. That is also good to know. > [@](#): > > No. Taking no action means they have no choice, because they can’t escape. If you take action and disable the lock, you’re giving them that choice. They still make the decision, and they are still responsible. So do slaves in Hypothetica never escape on their own? Is it only by the grace of foreign interlopers traipsing through the countryside with heavily armed and loyal mercenaries that they ever glimpse a chance at freedom at all? Because unless that’s what you’re positing, then they are perfectly capable of deciding to escape without my making myself responsible for their welfare. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/660 "2014-09-10T19:47:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Let’s ignore practicalities for a moment. > > Do you think slavery is a good or bad thing? I believe slavery to be a bad thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=34)