# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/781 "2014-09-30T15:58:46Z")
Nothing good requires or required blind obedience. And every greatly evil and destructive act has required blind obedience. Every genocide would have been impossible without **Smapti** -esque blind obedience. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/782 "2014-09-30T16:11:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, the Nazi party prospered precisely _because_ of the blind obedience of folks who thought like you do. Thus ‘I was just following orders’ being so common at Nuremburg. > [@](#): > > You would have made an excellent Nazi stooge. And has admitted as much in this very thread!!! > [@Smapti](#): > > How does that make me an anti-semite? The ethnicity of a person that the government “asks me to turn in” is irrelevant. If the government wanted to round up all the white people, I’d be obligated to surrender; does that make me anti-white? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/783 "2014-09-30T16:34:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, the Nazi party prospered precisely _because_ of the blind obedience of folks who thought like you do. The Nazi party would not _exist_ if they had obeyed the rules. They wouldn’t have organized in secret, they wouldn’t have tried to overthrow the government in 1923, they wouldn’t have continued operating after being banned, they wouldn’t have allied with the brownshirts and started riots, they wouldn’t have burned the Reichstag, and they wouldn’t have circumvented the law to round up and execute Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/784 "2014-09-30T16:35:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Every genocide would have been impossible without **Smapti** -esque blind obedience. No genocide would ever be possible if everyone followed the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/785 "2014-09-30T16:36:37Z")
They wouldn’t have thrown their garbage into someone else’s trash. They wouldn’t have repeatedly driven a vehicle that was not road worthy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/786 "2014-09-30T16:40:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The Nazi party would not _exist_ if they had obeyed the rules. So what? In the real world, we know that sometimes people won’t play by the rules, and occasionally they might end up in power, and in position to make the rules themselves. That’s why blind obedience to authority is so terrible. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/787 "2014-09-30T16:41:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No genocide would ever be possible if everyone followed the rules. In the real world, people will sometimes break the rules. And sometimes they’ll take power. That’s why it’s essential that we instill the value of questioning authority in education, and that’s why blind obedience is so dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/788 "2014-09-30T17:15:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the real world, people will sometimes break the rules. > [@](#): > > That’s why it’s essential that we instill the value of questioning authority in education So you want to solve the problem by perpetuating it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/789 "2014-09-30T17:22:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you want to solve the problem by perpetuating it. No. In the real world, we recognize things like the fact that not everyone will obey the law and follow the rules, and historically sometimes these people will gain power. Recognizing these facts, we must prepare ourselves and our children by questioning authority, and teaching them to question authority, such that we can evaluate orders and demands from authorities to determine whether they are lawful and just, and act appropriately. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/790 "2014-09-30T17:22:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So you want to solve the problem by perpetuating it. Yes. You engage people in a discussion about when it’s appropriate to follow rules you don’t agree with, and when under what circumstances it’s appropriate to break and/or challenges rules. In this way people can distinguish between the circumstances when they just don’t like a fair rule and understand why its important to society they follow it anyway and when it’s beneficial to society to break rules that are unfair or have become so obsolete to be distruptive. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/791 "2014-09-30T17:24:37Z")
The problem is not breaking the rules. The problem is unjust orders and demands. If we teach children only to follow the rules, then they are not able to act appropriately if the wrong people gain power. If we teach children to think critically and question authority, then they can recognize when the rules, laws, orders, and demands are just and appropriate, and when they are not. Only critical thinking skills prevent genocides and similar atrocities. Blind obedience just allows you to become a tool of those who seek genocide and other destructive acts. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/792 "2014-09-30T17:35:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If we teach children only to follow the rules, then they are not able to act appropriately if the wrong people gain power. If we teach children only to follow the rules, they won’t grow up to _be_ “the wrong people”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/793 "2014-09-30T17:40:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If we teach children only to follow the rules, they won’t grow up to _be_ “the wrong people”. In the real world, some people will grow up to be the wrong people, and we should equip our children to handle the real world. Your view of how the world works is based on fantasy and not reality. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/794 "2014-09-30T17:53:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If we teach children only to follow the rules, they won’t grow up to _be_ “the wrong people”. Not true. Rules become outdated and obsolete as society evolves. What rules would you have taught your children to follow to prevent Jim Crow legislation? What rules should they have followed to avoid laws that prevented women from seeking a no-fault divorce from their husbands? What rule would you taught your children to follow that would have prevented anti-sodomy laws? What rules would you have taught to children to follow that would have granted women the vote? Those laws were created by people and put in place. After a time it became clear that those rules were wrong and became outdated. People had to either ignore the rules (like anti-sodomy laws) or actively fight, including using civil disobedience to get things changed. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/795 "2014-09-30T17:54:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No genocide would ever be possible if everyone followed the rules. :dubious: Oh, _come on_. What are these fucking “rules” of which you speak? You’ve already denied the existence of fundamental human rights and the irrelevance of justice and morality. So what “rules” were the Romans breaking when they committed the Carthaginian genocide after the 3rd Punic War? Can you point to any citations that were violated when the Qing [exterminated](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide) the Dzungar people? What law was violated when, just this past century, the Turks almost wiped out the Armenians or the West Pakistani government decided to slaughter every Bengali they could find in East Pakistan? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/796 "2014-09-30T17:56:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the real world, some people will grow up to be the wrong people And they will be the ones who claim that following ‘the rules’ at all times is a good thing. The idea that ‘the rules’ would prevent genocide, slavery, murder, etc, if only people followed them is fucking idiotic. ‘The rules’ are what the people in charge (and society at large) say they are, not some natural force that humans have to fight against if they want to do ‘bad’. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/797 "2014-09-30T18:03:08Z")
And as for your irredeemable cowardice, I strongly recommend you read Ernest Becker’s [_The Denial of Death_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death). This cowardice is not only morally repugnant - it is _deeply_, fundamentally at odds with human existence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/798 "2014-09-30T18:15:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If we teach children only to follow the rules, they won’t grow up to _be_ “the wrong people”. A rule can’t be wrong? What rule book do _you_ use? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/799 "2014-09-30T18:16:59Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > ‘The rules’ are what the people in charge (and society at large) say they are, not some natural force that humans have to fight against if they want to do ‘bad’. …which is what I’ve been getting called a coward, fascist, and idiot for the past 16 pages for saying. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/800 "2014-09-30T18:21:06Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > And as for your irredeemable cowardice, I strongly recommend you read Ernest Becker’s [_The Denial of Death_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death). > [@](#): > > Thus, since humanity has a dualistic nature consisting of a physical self and a symbolic self, we are able to transcend the dilemma of mortality through heroism, a concept involving our symbolic halves. By embarking on what Becker refers to as an “immortality project” (or causa sui), in which a person creates or becomes part of something which they feel will last forever, the person feels they have “become” heroic and, henceforth, part of something eternal; something that will never die, compared to their physical body that will one day die. This, in turn, gives the person the feeling that their life has meaning, a purpose, significance in the grand scheme of things… Another theme running throughout the book is that humanity’s traditional “hero-systems” i.e. religion, are no longer convincing in the age of reason; science is attempting to solve the problem of humanity, something that Becker feels it can never do. The book states that we need new convincing “illusions” that enable us to feel heroic in the grand scheme of things, i.e. immortal. So basically, the author is asserting that we have to lie to ourselves about the nature of the universe or we’ll go crazy. I say that any worldview based on something you know is a lie is worthless from the start. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=41)