# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1141 "2014-12-14T17:24:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You mean like Jim Crow, which came about when the southern states decided the 14th amendment was morally unacceptable and they didn’t have to follow it? Many black people (and their allies) disobeyed Jim Crow laws. They were right, and the people who obeyed them were wrong. > [@](#): > > What “immoral laws” existed that the foundation of our country owes its existence to the defiance of? Taxation without representation, among others. > [@](#): > > And what civil rights achievements would not have occurred if people had followed the law? All of them. They all involved civil disobedience, and other ways to disobey the law peacefully. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1142 "2014-12-14T17:24:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > LOL. Of course. The black protesters during Civil Rights who were beaten and attacked by dogs by police shouldn’t have complained about it. Exactly. I can’t think of a better way of showing people that, firstly, you are in fact being mistreated and secondly, contrary to popular perception at the time, you are not in fact barely human, violent thugs. Not that what you mention is punishment, and so the moral obligation isn’t there, just a practical one. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1143 "2014-12-14T17:27:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Exactly. I can’t think of a better way of showing people that, firstly, you are in fact being mistreated and secondly, contrary to popular perception at the time, you are not in fact barely human, violent thugs. Right – they told everyone about the mistreatment. Like the protesters are today, for the mistreatment they perceive. Also known as complaining. > [@](#): > > Not that what you mention is punishment, and so the moral obligation isn’t there, just a practical one. If it wasn’t punishment, what was it? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1144 "2014-12-14T17:32:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Many black people (and their allies) disobeyed Jim Crow laws. They were right, and the people who obeyed them were wrong. By _your_ standards. There were obviously millions of other people whose standards disagreed, to the degree that those people were able to influence the government to codify their moral standards into law. Why are _your_ moral standards more objectively right than anyone else’s? Because they’re yours? Because your side “won”? Because you believe that some supernatural force has endorsed your worldview? > [@](#): > > Taxation without representation, among others. So you’ll be joining the people protesting the unfair and immoral taxation of Cliven Bundy, then? > [@](#): > > All of them. They all involved civil disobedience, and other ways to disobey the law peacefully. What act of civil disobedience was necessary to the passage of the 14th amendment? Or R-74? Or the rulings in Murray v. Curlett, Lawrence v. TX, Roe v. Wade, or US v. Windsor? Do you acknowledge that there is any way to advance the cause of civil rights that does not involve breaking the law? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1145 "2014-12-14T17:33:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I seem to remember there was this guy at the heart of the civil rights movement who was big on nonviolent resistance and allowing the cops to do what they were going to do without fighting back. What was his name? Morton something? Are you invoking the legacy of this terrorist? Look at this terrorism! [http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/resources/uploads/selmatomontgomerymarch.jpg](http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/resources/uploads/selmatomontgomerymarch.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1146 "2014-12-14T17:40:16Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Are you invoking the legacy of this terrorist? Look at this terrorism! > > [http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/resources/uploads/selmatomontgomerymarch.jpg](http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/resources/uploads/selmatomontgomerymarch.jpg) [King and his followers had received approval from a federal judge to conduct that march](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_Montgomery_marches#The_march_to_Montgomery) and they were escorted by the Army and federalized National Guard troops. It was a lawful and peaceful exercise of their First Amendment rights, unlike the thugs destroying property and disrupting business in support of Garner and Brown. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1147 "2014-12-14T17:45:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > By _your_ standards. There were obviously millions of other people whose standards disagreed, to the degree that those people were able to influence the government to codify their moral standards into law. Why are _your_ moral standards more objectively right than anyone else’s? Because they’re yours? Because your side “won”? Because you believe that some supernatural force has endorsed your worldview? That’s how morality works. I understand you don’t have any – you’ve said you wouldn’t risk anything at all to help free slaves, among other absolutely repugnant things – but most people do. People who have morality understand that sometimes moral questions are more important than questions of law, and sometimes the right thing to do is to disobey the law. > [@](#): > > So you’ll be joining the people protesting the unfair and immoral taxation of Cliven Bundy, then? If I thought it was unfair and immoral, I would. But I don’t – he is represented. > [@](#): > > What act of civil disobedience was necessary to the passage of the 14th amendment? The many, many violations of the law by slaves who wanted to be free and their supporters. > [@](#): > > Or R-74? For gay rights in general, Stonewall, local officials violating the law and giving marriage documents to gay couples, etc. > [@](#): > > Or the rulings in Murray v. Curlett For this and other issues of religions freedom, an example is teachers and students who refused to obey the law with regards to mandated religious expression. > [@](#): > > Lawrence v. TX Are you fucking kidding? Buttfucking was against the law. Many people buttfucked. Those who buttfucked in violation of the law were right. > [@](#): > > Roe v. Wade Again – you must be joking. Many women had illegal abortions, some of whom suffered due because of bad practices. > [@](#): > > or US v. Windsor See gay rights above. > [@](#): > > Do you acknowledge that there is any way to advance the cause of civil rights that does not involve breaking the law? Yes, and there are many ways that involve breaking the law. For pretty much every advance in Civil Rights, both categories were used, and both were necessary. If slaves hadn’t broken the law and escaped from slavery, many wouldn’t have learned that they actually wanted to be free, or were even fully capable and independent human beings. That’s an extreme example, but there are many for pretty much every major advance in our history. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1148 "2014-12-14T17:46:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [King and his followers had received approval from a federal judge to conduct that march](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_Montgomery_marches#The_march_to_Montgomery) and they were escorted by the Army and federalized National Guard troops. It was a lawful and peaceful exercise of their First Amendment rights, unlike the thugs destroying property and disrupting business in support of Garner and Brown. There were many instances, already cited, in which King and other Civil Rights leaders disrupted traffic, which you said was terrorism. Don’t back down now – just accept that you stated that MLK Jr. was a terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1149 "2014-12-14T17:51:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There were many instances, already cited, in which King and other Civil Rights leaders disrupted traffic, which you said was terrorism. Disrupting traffic _without permission._ King had permission this time. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1150 "2014-12-14T17:56:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s how morality works. I understand you don’t have any – you’ve said you wouldn’t risk anything at all to help free slaves, among other absolutely repugnant things – but most people do. People who have morality understand that sometimes moral questions are more important than questions of law, and sometimes the right thing to do is to disobey the law. And I ask you again - what makes your morality _right_ and those other people’s morality wrong? > [@](#): > > If I thought it was unfair and immoral, I would. But I don’t – he is represented. And he believes he isn’t. Why are you right and he’s not? > [@](#): > > The many, many violations of the law by slaves who wanted to be free and their supporters. Slavery was no longer a thing when the 14th amendment became law. > [@](#): > > For gay rights in general, Stonewall, local officials violating the law and giving marriage documents to gay couples, etc. I didn’t ask about “gay rights in general”. What specific act of lawbreaking was inexorably responsible for the passage of R-74? > [@](#): > > For this and other issues of religions freedom, an example is teachers and students who refused to obey the law with regards to mandated religious expression. Which doesn’t even have anything to do with Murray v. Curlett, where the plaintiff was a parent upset that school officials _were_ following the law. > [@](#): > > Are you fucking kidding? Buttfucking was against the law. Many people buttfucked. Those who buttfucked in violation of the law were right. And whose butt had to be unlawfully fucked in order for Lawrence v. KS to happen? > [@](#): > > Again – you must be joking. Many women had illegal abortions, some of whom suffered due because of bad practices. Roe did _not_ have an unlawful abortion. What unlawful abortion lead to the passage of Roe v. Wade? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1151 "2014-12-14T18:05:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If it wasn’t punishment, what was it? Criminal assault. Something actually worth complaining about, rather than someone being shot after they violently robbed a shot and punched a policeman, or someone complaining about being locked up for repeatedly not paying fines or child support. Try finding some _innocent_ people to be your poster children, not a bunch of criminals, and you might get some sympathy. Stop protesting about criminals being punished for their crimes, and focus on innocent people being mistreated. Spend the time and money that’s being put into these ridiculous protests about Ferguson and Garner into challenging actual breaches of innocent people’s rights, not into challenging people getting nothing they didn’t bring on themselves. Above all, do it peacefully, and be _better_ than those you oppose. Like Martin Luther King. Like Gandhi. Like many others who stood up and did what was _right_, and took the consequences, not the violent “protesters” with their faces covered - whether black people in Ferguson or white people “occupying” places. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1152 "2014-12-14T18:08:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Disrupting traffic _without permission._ > > King had permission this time. There many instances in which they didn’t have permission. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1153 "2014-12-14T18:13:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And I ask you again - what makes your morality _right_ and those other people’s morality wrong? Irrelevant. There’s no point in arguing about morality with someone with none. > [@](#): > > And he believes he isn’t. Why are you right and he’s not? He’s wrong on the facts. He has representatives he can vote for. > [@](#): > > Slavery was no longer a thing when the 14th amendment became law. It wouldn’t have become law without those illegal actions by slaves and abolitionists. > [@](#): > > I didn’t ask about “gay rights in general”. What specific act of lawbreaking was inexorably responsible for the passage of R-74? All of those I discussed. R-74, and other advances, wouldn’t have happened if gay people and their supporters didn’t assert their rights – and some of these assertions involved breaking the law. > [@](#): > > Which doesn’t even have anything to do with Murray v. Curlett, where the plaintiff was a parent upset that school officials _were_ following the law. Yes it does – none of this happened in a vacuum. All of these events were the culminations of long processes, which involved many forms of protest and civil disobedience, among other tactics. > [@](#): > > And whose butt had to be unlawfully fucked in order for Lawrence v. KS to happen? Everyone who the judges (and the people in general) believed were immorally sanctioned for such activity. > [@](#): > > Roe did _not_ have an unlawful abortion. What unlawful abortion lead to the passage of Roe v. Wade? All of the unlawful abortions over the decades that led to a swing of opinion (and a swing in the courts). It didn’t happen in a vacuum. None of these things would have happened without the actions, many of which were against the law, of people before them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1154 "2014-12-14T18:15:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Criminal assault. Something actually worth complaining about, rather than someone being shot after they violently robbed a shot and punched a policeman, or someone complaining about being locked up for repeatedly not paying fines or child support. > > Try finding some _innocent_ people to be your poster children, not a bunch of criminals, and you might get some sympathy. Stop protesting about criminals being punished for their crimes, and focus on innocent people being mistreated. Spend the time and money that’s being put into these ridiculous protests about Ferguson and Garner into challenging actual breaches of innocent people’s rights, not into challenging people getting nothing they didn’t bring on themselves. > > Above all, do it peacefully, and be _better_ than those you oppose. Like Martin Luther King. Like Gandhi. Like many others who stood up and did what was _right_, and took the consequences, not the violent “protesters” with their faces covered - whether black people in Ferguson or white people “occupying” places. There are innocent people being mistreated. And most of the protesters are peaceful. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1155 "2014-12-14T18:16:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Irrelevant. There’s no point in arguing about morality with someone with none. So is it that you don’t want to answer the question, or you can’t? Why is your morality more true than anyone else’s? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1156 "2014-12-14T18:18:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He’s wrong on the facts. He has representatives he can vote for. And so are the supporters of Brown and Garner. Why aren’t they out there voting instead of burning cars and looting businesses? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1157 "2014-12-14T18:19:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So is it that you don’t want to answer the question, or you can’t? > > Why is your morality more true than anyone else’s? Morality is a human construct, from shared assumptions about the world, what works best, and what is most just. I’ve said this many times before. My moral system is better, in my view, because it fits more with the reality about how the world works, what justice is, and how people behave. But this is a sideshow, because you’re unable to defend any of your assertions. > [@Smapti](#): > > And so are the supporters of Brown and Garner. Why aren’t they out there voting instead of burning cars and looting businesses? They are out there voting (and protesting), and most of them are not burning and looting. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1158 "2014-12-14T18:20:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are innocent people being mistreated. No doubt, which is why it’s so confounding that all the protests focus on those who aren’t. > [@](#): > > And most of the protesters are peaceful. Again, no doubt. The problem is, most isn’t all, and until the majority actively distance themselves from the violent minority, nothing will change, and they will keep doing their cause more harm than good. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1159 "2014-12-14T18:23:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No doubt, which is why it’s so confounding that all the protests focus on those who aren’t. No they don’t. Most people in the US agree with the protesters on the Eric Garner case. > [@](#): > > Again, no doubt. The problem is, most isn’t all, and until the majority actively distance themselves from the violent minority, nothing will change, and they will keep doing their cause more harm than good. Most do distance themselves. Considering the change in polling from the Brown case to the Garner case, the protesters are doing their cause quite a bit of good, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1160 "2014-12-14T18:28:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Morality is a human construct, from shared assumptions about the world, what works best, and what is most just. I’ve said this many times before. My moral system is better, **in my view** (emphasis mine), because it fits more with the reality about how the world works, what justice is, and how people behave. And why is your view right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=57) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=59)