# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1181 "2014-12-14T21:02:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Also, no-one has claimed the problem with terrorism is that it’s criminal, so I don’t know who you’re talking to there. Okay, so how does an act go from terrorism to not terrorism by dint of having gotten a permit for it? That’s the position you’re taking up here. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1182 "2014-12-14T21:12:42Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Okay, so how does an act go from terrorism to not terrorism by dint of having gotten a permit for it? That’s the position you’re taking up here. No, it isn’t, not really, but were such edge cases to exist, they would go from terrorism to non-terrorism precisely by getting a permit. Just as something can go from being illegal to being legal by having a permit issued. Terrorist acts, you see, are illegal acts. So, if you have a permit, if your actions are legal, those acts do not terrorise. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1183 "2014-12-14T21:55:52Z")
Allied strategic bombing against civilian centers during WWII was called terror bombing, justified on the grounds that it would lower the target nation’s morale. If the Axis had won it’s probable Allied leaders and planners would have been hanged for war crimes. Curtis LeMay thought so. This discussion in general reminds me of when liberals were talking in circles over whether Iraq was legal or not. Years and years of hand wringing. Talk about beside the point. People on the outside didn’t care if the Soviet’s invasion of Afghanistan comported with USSR law or not. The whole point of having power is being able to do what you want. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1184 "2014-12-14T21:58:04Z")
If the Axis had won, it’s pretty certain that Allied leaders would have been executed regardless of their crimes or lack thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1185 "2014-12-14T22:11:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it isn’t, not really, but were such edge cases to exist, they would go from terrorism to non-terrorism precisely by getting a permit. > > Just as something can go from being illegal to being legal by having a permit issued. > > Terrorist acts, you see, are illegal acts. **So, if you have a permit, if your actions are legal, those acts do not terrorise.** Bolding mine, because I find it hard to believe anyone could actually write something so stupid. An act terrorizes based on its legality. Stunning. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1186 "2014-12-14T22:21:57Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Bolding mine, because I find it hard to believe anyone could actually write something so stupid. > > An act terrorizes based on its legality. > > Stunning. I ask again; was the bombing of Hiroshima terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1187 "2014-12-14T22:22:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Petty criminals, mostly. Boycotting is one thing, trespassing and disrupting business is another. > > To the extent that he enforced the law as it was written, yes. To the extent that he actively sought to enact bad laws, no. Wow. You are one motherfucking evil bastard. Supporting turning attack dogs on children? Seriously, you’re either a troll, or you need some serious psychiatric help, because soe of what you’ve said here sounds downright sociopathic. You’d probably support the Gestapo. > [@Smapti](#): > > I seem to remember there was this guy at the heart of the civil rights movement who was big on nonviolent resistance and allowing the cops to do what they were going to do without fighting back. What was his name? Morton something? In the example I gave, Connor set loose attack dogs and fire hoses ON PEACEFUL PROTESTORS. Including CHILDREN. Jesus Christ, what the fuck is wrong with you? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1188 "2014-12-14T22:46:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I ask again; was the bombing of Hiroshima terrorism? Pretty much. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1189 "2014-12-14T22:54:30Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Pretty much. So was Harry Truman a terrorist? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1190 "2014-12-14T23:00:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Terrorism is a crime. If it’s been sanctioned by the state, it’s not a crime, and therefore it’s not terrorism. In other words, the Holocaust was not terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1191 "2014-12-14T23:00:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Wow. You are one motherfucking evil bastard. Supporting turning attack dogs on children? Seriously, you’re either a troll, or you need some serious psychiatric help, because soe of what you’ve said here sounds downright sociopathic. Is their being children supposed to be a mitigating circumstance? Children can still be criminals. Children can still cause physical harm or property damage. Children can still _kill._ Simply being a child does not excuse one from the consequences of their criminal actions. > [@](#): > > In the example I gave, Connor set loose attack dogs and fire hoses ON PEACEFUL PROTESTORS. Including CHILDREN. Jesus Christ, what the fuck is wrong with you? Bull Connor was a segregationist asshole. There, I said it. He was a bigoted jerk and he often neglected his duty to the law in favor of his prejudices, as when he allowed the KKK to assault the Freedom Riders without police protection. That doesn’t mean he did not possess the lawful authority to use dogs and water cannons to dispel unlawful gatherings, or that other less ethically questionable authority figures do not possess those powers. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1192 "2014-12-14T23:02:13Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > In other words, the Holocaust was not terrorism. But jaywalking is. At least in Smapti and Steophan land. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1193 "2014-12-14T23:04:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > In other words, the Holocaust was not terrorism. No, it wasn’t. It was several other things, including genocide, murder, and crime against humanity, but it was not terrorism. Is the Holocaust not bad _enough_ by your standards, that you must abuse the definition of the word “terrorism” so that it applies to the Holocaust as well? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1194 "2014-12-14T23:05:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > But jaywalking is. At least in Smapti and Steophan land. Cite for me saying that jaywalking is terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1195 "2014-12-14T23:12:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, it wasn’t. It was several other things, including genocide, murder, and crime against humanity, but it was not terrorism. Is the Holocaust not bad _enough_ by your standards, that you must abuse the definition of the word “terrorism” so that it applies to the Holocaust as well? It just goes to show, doesn’t it, that when you’re determined enough you can come up with a definition of terrorism that includes blocking traffic without a permit but excludes the Holocaust. But OK - the latter was sponsored and approved by a state actor, so not terrorism by your definition. Was the Lockerbie (Pan Am 103) bombing terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1196 "2014-12-14T23:12:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, it wasn’t. It was several other things, including genocide, murder, and crime against humanity, but it was not terrorism. Is the Holocaust not bad _enough_ by your standards, that you must abuse the definition of the word “terrorism” so that it applies to the Holocaust as well? Okay, fine. Then what about, as was stated _Krystallnacht_? Or the Night of the Long Knives? (Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in my view, were not terrorism, it was a much, much more complex issue, and was not necessarily done to inspire terror, but to avoid a long, lengthy invasion which would have cost even more lives on both sides. The Allies wanted an end to a grueling war, and their objective was for Japan to surrender unconditionally. But the whole debate about that is for another thread.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1197 "2014-12-14T23:17:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cite for me saying that jaywalking is terrorism? Jaywalking often disrupts traffic – cars might have to slow down unexpectedly to avoid accidents. You said that disrupting traffic was terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1198 "2014-12-14T23:26:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Cite for me saying that jaywalking is terrorism? It involves the illegal disruption of traffic without a permit, which you say is terrorism. Pure, unadulterated terrorism! ---
**Author:** ![DoggyDunnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DoggyDunnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoggyDunnit)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1199 "2014-12-15T00:56:57Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It involves the illegal disruption of traffic without a permit, which you say is terrorism. Pure, unadulterated terrorism! The thing that gets me about tighty-righties’ reactions to anti-Black police brutality is that, in their view, people in the streets marching and protesting the brutality constitutes “terrorism” (as if some privileged frat-boy type would simply croak if he has to take a five-minute detour driving his Land Rover to go ‘chill with the boys’), but there’s just no possible way the police could be committing an act of terrorism with their widespread, systematic abuse of the African-American community. Nope, no terrorism there. And, while we’re at it, ain’t no snow on Mount Everest, bears don’t shit in the woods, and the sky is made of purple cotton candy. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1200 "2014-12-15T01:12:23Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > But OK - the latter was sponsored and approved by a state actor, so not terrorism by your definition. Was the Lockerbie (Pan Am 103) bombing terrorism? If terrorism only accounts for criminal acts, and the government can not commit criminal acts as long as they get to pass the laws to justify their own actions, then state sponsored terrorism is a contradiction of terms and vanishes in a puff of logic. It may be against the laws of other states, but then things get too complicated for such simplistic power worshipping analysis. Forget domestic terrorism. If you want to bring the system to a halt, try driving slow in the fast lane. Add 10 minutes to your lunch break. The center can not hold! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=61)