# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 64
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1261 "2014-12-15T18:28:15Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > To wit: The way you posted it made it sound to me like you were saying I made the error about innate morality. EDIT – I was very confused. I see what you’re saying now, and agree. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1262 "2014-12-15T18:29:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Ahem. > > You were saying? I’m saying you’re a sad, demented fuckwit. A misshapen oddity of a person. It is not okay to go around shooting people because you oppose abortion. It’s not okay to go around blowing buildings full of people because you oppose the government. The harm of ending someone’s life IS NOT EQUAL to the harm of making them late for work. Again, you cannot comprehend these sorts of things beyond the two categories of illegal/legal, so you should not attempt to think about this any further. You might dissolve into a catatonic state. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1263 "2014-12-15T18:30:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > To the extent that they attempted to sabotage the Kentucky Derby, yes. In general, no. There were other instances beyond the Kentucky derby. And again, this is a qualified difference than the “yes” you gave before. But we should remember that according to **Smapti** , some of what Hosea Williams, the SCLC, and MLK Jr. did and advocated for was terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1264 "2014-12-15T18:33:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There were other instances beyond the Kentucky derby. And again, this is a qualified difference than the “yes” you gave before. The “yes” you’ve yet to find a link to, you mean. > [@](#): > > But we should remember that according to **Smapti** , some of what Hosea Williams, the SCLC, and MLK Jr. did and advocated for was terrorism. Yes, and it pains me to admit that, because the greatest acts of terrorism that occurred during the civil rights movement were committed against the activists, not by them (the murder of Medgar Evers and others, KKK members beating the Freedom Riders, etc.) But bad terrorism does not excuse good terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1265 "2014-12-15T18:41:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > China and North Korea are not democracies, and the way they make law and treat protestors is not germane to a discussion of how people in the civilized world are obligated to behave. So what? They espouse the ideals of absolute obedience and trust in the state. What a moral judgment of which government style is acceptable and which is not? If the people start challenging the “civilized state” of some governments won’t that lead to anarchy? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1266 "2014-12-15T18:46:06Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > If the people start challenging the “civilized state” of some governments won’t that lead to anarchy? There are some forms of government to which anarchy would be preferable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1267 "2014-12-15T18:47:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The “yes” you’ve yet to find a link to, you mean. Linked to multiple times. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17962545&postcount=1072) it is again. > [@](#): > > Yes, and it pains me to admit that, because the greatest acts of terrorism that occurred during the civil rights movement were committed against the activists, not by them (the murder of Medgar Evers and others, KKK members beating the Freedom Riders, etc.) > > But bad terrorism does not excuse good terrorism. It shouldn’t pain you to admit it, because it’s totally ridiculous. Terrorism is not and has never been about threats of inconvenience, which is all that traffic disruption (or similar types of civil disobedience) is. Terrorism is and has always been about threats to life and limb – hence the root “terror”… harm to life and limb causes terror, not harm to traffic flow. No one experiences terror from the threat of being late. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1268 "2014-12-15T18:49:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There are some forms of government to which anarchy would be preferable. This goes contrary to nearly everything you’ve said about government in this thread or any other. What forms of government are inferior to anarchy, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1269 "2014-12-15T18:50:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Linked to multiple times. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17962545&postcount=1072) it is again. Funny how the “yes” in that post isn’t an answer to the question you want it to be an answer to. But I guess when you’re not concerned with facts it’s easy to put words in people’s mouths. > [@](#): > > It shouldn’t pain you to admit it, because it’s totally ridiculous. Terrorism is not and has never been about threats of inconvenience, which is all that traffic disruption (or similar types of civil disobedience) is. Terrorism is and has always been about threats to life and limb – hence the root “terror”… harm to life and limb causes terror, not harm to traffic flow. No one experiences terror from the threat of being late. Have _you_ ever been late? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1270 "2014-12-15T18:50:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There are some forms of government to which anarchy would be preferable. I agree. But that’s a moral judgement of the type you think here in a democracy we are not equipped to make. The North Koreans have more rights to challenge their government than we do? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1271 "2014-12-15T18:52:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This goes contrary to nearly everything you’ve said about government in this thread or any other. What forms of government are inferior to anarchy, in your view? All those other than those in which sovereignty is vested in the people and exercised by elected civil servants bound to the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1272 "2014-12-15T18:53:18Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I agree. But that’s a moral judgement of the type you think here in a democracy we are not equipped to make. The North Koreans have more rights to challenge their government than we do? Yes. The government of North Korea is illegitimate and its people are not obligated to be loyal to it. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1273 "2014-12-15T18:55:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > All those other than those in which sovereignty is vested in the people and exercised by elected civil servants bound to the rule of law. And if those civil servants abuse their position, they deserve to protested against just as vigorously as if they took the rule by force. If those civil servants disenfranchised voters they didn’t want to vote (blacks, women etc), passed laws that harm those groups, then they have not upheld their duty and have institutionalized barriers to those groups having a voice. When women didn’t have the vote they were not functionally part of a democracy. When blacks were barred from voting by unethical means they were functionally not part of a democracy. > [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. The government of North Korea is illegitimate and its people are not obligated to be loyal to it. Says who- you? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1274 "2014-12-15T18:56:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Funny how the “yes” in that post isn’t an answer to the question you want it to be an answer to. But I guess when you’re not concerned with facts it’s easy to put words in people’s mouths. It’s an answer to the question of whether the Civil Rights protesters who disrupted traffic and had demands were terrorists. First you answered “yes”, then you qualified it. > [@](#): > > Have _you_ ever been late? If being late caused you terror, then your sense of fear is as screwed up as your sense of morality and justice. Though, considering the “coward” accusation in the OP, and many of the things you’ve said since, this isn’t that surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1275 "2014-12-15T18:57:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Have _you_ ever been late? Yes, and it was not remotely terrifying. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1276 "2014-12-15T18:58:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. The government of North Korea is illegitimate and its people are not obligated to be loyal to it. This is bizarro **Smapti**. Several pages ago, I asked you about a hypothetical in a country like Mali, in which you had the chance to free slaves (in a hypothetical country with slavery) with virtually no risk to yourself. You said you wouldn’t do it, and that doing it would be wrong. Are you now saying that this hypothetical country’s government, in which slavery is legal, is illegitimate? So are people obligated or not to be loyal to it? And how do you determine whether this is so? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1277 "2014-12-15T19:01:26Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > And if those civil servants abuse their position, they deserve to protested against just as vigorously as if they took the rule by force. If those civil servants disenfranchised voters they didn’t want to vote (blacks, women etc), passed laws that harm those groups, then they have not upheld their duty and have institutionalized barriers to those groups having a voice. When women didn’t have the vote they were not functionally part of a democracy. When blacks were barred from voting by unethical means they were functionally not part of a democracy. Conceded. They had the right to protest those people who were unlawfully restricting their Constitutional rights, which had at that point already been affirmed by the federal government. The federal government was also somewhat to blame for not defending their rights as vigorously as they ought to have. > [@](#): > > Says who- you? Yes. Says me. And my opinion is obviously not shared by the leadership of North Korea, and they’re not going to be dissuaded from their course by my protest. And I’m not going to pretend that my opinion is based in any greater authority than my own say-so. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1278 "2014-12-15T19:03:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If being late caused you terror, then your sense of fear is as screwed up as your sense of morality and justice. If I’m late, I can lose my job. And if I lose my job for being late, then I’m not going to get unemployment. I’m going to lose my source of income, the healthcare coverage that makes the medication I _need_ to be able to live my daily life affordable instead of costing more than a weekend in Vegas, and unless I can find a new job in short order while having to admit that I was fired from my last job from being late, I’ll soon be out of a place to live as well. You’re damn right being late causes me terror. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1279 "2014-12-15T19:05:25Z")
Direct contradiction between two posts by **Smapti** , about what forms of government are legitimate and superior to anarchy: > [@Smapti](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > This goes contrary to nearly everything you’ve said about government in this thread or any other. What forms of government are inferior to anarchy, in your view? > > All those other than those in which sovereignty is vested in the people and exercised by elected civil servants bound to the rule of law. > [@Smapti](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > Here’s the contradiction. If your moral guide is “That every person has the right to live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society”, as you’ve stated, then it is absolutely morally _right_ for a slave to try and free themselves – because that might be the only way they can “live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society” – by escaping to some place in which they can do this. > > Not according to the government which says it’s legal to enslave them, and which is not likely to change its mind simply because the slave insists otherwise. What makes my moral belief more inherently true than that of that government? Nothing. > > > [@](#): > > > > And it is absolutely morally right for a soldier ordered to take part in genocide to disobey the order – and morally right for a low-level German bureacrat to disobey instructions and look the other way when a Jewish family tries to escape – because, in this way, they are contributing, in some way, to allowing people to “live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society”. > > Not according to the government which says it’s legal to commit genocide, and which is not likely to change its mind simply because the soldier insists otherwise. What makes my moral belief more inherently true than that of that government? Nothing. > > > [@](#): > > > > Your answers to the questions about slavery and about genocide totally contradict the moral guide you’ve put forward. And all of your contradictions err on one side – obeying authority rather than allowing persons to “live their life in the way that makes them happy and which allows them to most effectively utilize their innate talents to the benefit of society”. > > The fact that the world is not what I wish the would would be is not a “contradiction”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1280 "2014-12-15T19:06:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is bizarro **Smapti**. Several pages ago, I asked you about a hypothetical in a country like Mali, in which you had the chance to free slaves (in a hypothetical country with slavery) with virtually no risk to yourself. You said you wouldn’t do it, and that doing it would be wrong. > > Are you now saying that this hypothetical country’s government, in which slavery is legal, is illegitimate? So are people obligated or not to be loyal to it? > > And how do you determine whether this is so? That government is not legitimate. Its citizens (or slaves, as the case may be) are not in my opinion obligated to it. In the opinion of that government, they _are_, and “but Smapti says you’re illegitimate!” is not likely to be an effective defense against accusations of treason. I, the tourist, am obligated to the government, because I am a guest and a guest is expected to abide by the customs of their host. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=63) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=65)