# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 88
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1741 "2024-05-13T00:26:18Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > When the fuck did I say anything like that? Right here; > [@Chisquirrel](#): > > fuck those who kill innocent civilians under the guise of attacking Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1742 "2024-05-13T00:28:06Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Shame on you. Shame on me? I’m not the one saying displaced Gazans shouldn’t flee and their neighbors shouldn’t offer them asylum. It was obviously wrong for the US to turn away refugees from the Holocaust, yet here we’re being told that it’s wrong to suggest that the US should take in refugees from the genocide they claim is happening right now. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1743 "2024-05-13T00:30:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Go after Hamas means targeting the funders and planners Those people are in Qatar. Qatar is a US ally. I don’t think you’ve thought this through. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1744 "2024-05-13T00:36:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > > > Shame on you. > > Shame on me? Yes, shame on you. Because you’re so fucking glib about this. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1745 "2024-05-13T00:43:23Z")
I can fathom no other response to being told that fleeing a genocide is the same as getting genocided. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1746 "2024-05-13T00:44:45Z")
Shame! ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1747 "2024-05-13T00:46:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Was it a genocide when Turkey expelled the Greeks and vice versa after WWI? Was it genocide when Russia took Konigsburg? When the US evacuated Bikini Atoll, was that a genocide? > [@orcenio](#): > > Are you earnestly advocating the removal of Gazans? What’s the plan here? Forget it, he’s rolling. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1748 "2024-05-13T00:51:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And these are the people you think Israel should be negotiating with? These are the people you think Israel should cease fire against? These are the people who you think should be allowed to keep running Gaza? This is an interesting statement I didn’t expect you to make. I would like to clarify your position, please. Do you think Israel has a right to self defense? We all do, of course, I’m just starting from common ground. Do you think Israel has a right to self-determination? Again, of course we all agree on this. Do you think any other nation has the right to deprive Israel of self-determination unilaterally, under **any** circumstance? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1749 "2024-05-13T00:51:59Z")
“Go after” doesn’t necessarily mean bombing. Israel might have been able to get most of the world on their side after Oct 7th if their leaders had been smart. A coordinated international campaign of diplomacy, sanctions, etc., might have persuaded most of the world to join them to nullify Hamas, destroy their funding and supporter network, and render them defunct. Qatar might have booted them with enough pressure. Israel’s leaders chose a different path, which has weakened Israel and strengthened their enemies, and killed thousands of civilians for nothing. EDIT: It’s obvious you’re no longer debating honestly, based on the lies and straw men you’ve relied on. But I’m answering anyway because you’ve been a good poster before. I don’t know why you’re being such a lying asshole now. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1750 "2024-05-13T01:07:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > A coordinated international campaign of diplomacy, sanctions, etc., might have persuaded most of the world to join them to nullify Hamas, destroy their funding and supporter network, and render them defunct. “A coordinated campaign of diplomacy, sanctions, etc.” can’t stop missiles from raining down on your cities or guerillas from burning kibbutzers alive. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1751 "2024-05-13T01:09:14Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Do you think any other nation has the right to deprive Israel of self-determination unilaterally, under **any** circumstance? I think “right” becomes an abstract notion when you’re talking on the level of nation-states. Anyone who thinks they can deprive Israel of self-determination can certainly try. What we’re seeing now is the consequences of that decision. You may as well suggest that America should have responded to Pearl Harbor by complaining to the League of Nations. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1752 "2024-05-13T01:09:43Z")
No, but a competent IDF can, and has in the past, especially with international cooperation. An incompetent IDF, as we’re seeing now, isn’t really capable of anything but killing lots of civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1753 "2024-05-13T01:10:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, but a competent IDF can, And they have. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1754 "2024-05-13T01:11:28Z")
Then how did October 7th happen? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1755 "2024-05-13T01:13:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I think “right” becomes an abstract notion when you’re talking on the level of nation-states. Anyone who thinks they can deprive Israel of self-determination can certainly try. I’m trying to understand what _you_ think. Surely you don’t think _anyone_ who thinks they can deprive Israel of self-determination _should_ try to do so. Do you think any other nation has the right to deprive Israel of self-determination unilaterally, under **any** circumstance? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1756 "2024-05-13T01:16:13Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > > [@Smapti](#): > > > > Was it a genocide when Turkey expelled the Greeks and vice versa after WWI? Was it genocide when Russia took Konigsburg? When the US evacuated Bikini Atoll, was that a genocide? > > > [@orcenio](#): > > > > Are you earnestly advocating the removal of Gazans? What’s the plan here? > > Forget it, he’s rolling. Geez, what’s the issue guys? It’s only racial cleansing, not ‘genocide’. /s ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1757 "2024-05-13T01:16:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then how did October 7th happen? Because Israel tried to use diplomacy and sanctions against a death cult. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1758 "2024-05-13T01:17:12Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Surely you don’t think _anyone_ who thinks they can deprive Israel of self-determination _should_ try to do so. No. > [@Max\_S](#): > > Do you think any other nation has the right to deprive Israel of self-determination unilaterally, under **any** circumstance? On the international level a nation’s “rights” are a function of what they are capable of. I believe it would be wrong for any nation to attempt to deprive Israel of self-determination, but I know of no basis or means for enforcing such a belief. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1759 "2024-05-13T01:18:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > Do you think any other nation has the right to deprive Israel of self-determination unilaterally, under **any** circumstance? > > Mu. Can you explain? ETA: > [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > Do you think any other nation has the right to deprive Israel of self-determination unilaterally, under **any** circumstance? > > On the international level a nation’s “rights” are a function of what they are capable of. I think you’re misinterpreting me. I’m not asking for your opinion on international law. I’m asking whether you think a nation can ever be morally justified in unilaterally depriving Israel of self-determination. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2024, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/1760 "2024-05-13T01:21:03Z")
What a joke. You can’t possibly believe that. How could “negotiations and sanctions” result in a defense force caught with its pants down? On Earth, what happened was the Israeli right had been surreptitiously aiding Hamas for years (because Hamas was a partner against peace and against two states), and at the same time slowly poisoning the IDF with corruption, bigotry, and more, and focusing on protecting settlers in the West Bank rather than actually defending Israel. And what’s happening now is the same incompetent organization is getting more Israelis killed (and, obviously, killing more Gazans) in the last 7 months than in the couple of decades before that, while accomplishing nothing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=87) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=89)