# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/161 "2014-05-28T11:17:04Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > America is the laughing stock of the world because our Presidents have turned us into farce. Well, let’s look at how America made a farce of itself on an issue that actually touches directly upon the subject of the OP. As you probably recall, a couple of the evil terrorists that have got **Smapti** barricated under his bed behind a barricade of shredded copies of the Consitution perpetrated a bombing at the Boston Marathon. According to **Smapti** ’s worldview, this shows that the government doesn’t have enough information about what’s going on, and needs to get more fingers into everybody’s pies. According to worldviews based on reality… [not so much](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/26/us-usa-explosions-boston-congress-idUSBREA2P02Q20140326): > [@](#): > > Russian authorities warned the FBI in 2011 about Tamerlan Tsarnaev, one of two Chechen brothers accused of carrying out last year’s Boston Marathon bombings, but U.S. authorities missed chances to detain him, NBC News reported on Tuesday. Clearly, the government isn’t effectively using the information it already has. Giving them access to more information is like bailing out a chronically broke friend after he shows you slides of his recent Aruba vacation on his new 60" flatscreen over a bottle of 50-year-old Glenfiddich. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re just ranting on and on about nothing relevant to our disagreement. “If the law is on your side, pound on the law; if the facts are on your side, pound on the facts; if neither is on your side, pound on the table.” ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/162 "2014-05-29T20:02:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Can you explain to me why non Americans should give a shit about American dead? Yes I can. Can you explain to me why Americans should give a shit about non-American dead besides necrophiliacs getting boners? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/163 "2014-05-30T09:18:21Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > _ **Reasonable** _ searches and warrants are not the subject of this discussion. Please try to keep up with the class. So what searches are we discussing that are unreasonable, then? > [@](#): > > That is not one of the options. If the NSA did not know about Heartbleed despite their massive budget and mandate to protect American cyberinfrastructure (as they claim), they are incompetent. If the NSA did know about Heartbleed and exploited it without warning the industry to fix it (as discovered by Bloomberg), they are nefarious. Alternatively, they were aware of it and determined that the security of the American cybersphere was better served by not disrupting it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/164 "2014-05-30T09:19:45Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Do you even know what you’re talking about? [The Suspension Clause of the United States Constitution specifically included the English common law procedure in Article One, Section 9, clause 2, which demands that “The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_States) Exactly. You do _not_ have a right to habeas corpus. The writ of habeas corpus is a _privilege_ which may be suspended in the pursuance of public safety. Thank you for agreeing with me. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/165 "2014-05-30T09:22:53Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Clearly, the government isn’t effectively using the information it already has. Giving them access to more information is like bailing out a chronically broke friend after he shows you slides of his recent Aruba vacation on his new 60" flatscreen over a bottle of 50-year-old Glenfiddich. So your argument is what - that the government will never be able to protect us from terrorism no matter what, and therefore we shouldn’t even bother to try, and just accept our bloody deaths at the hands of extremists as inevitable? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/166 "2014-05-30T09:26:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So your argument is what - that the government will never be able to protect us from terrorism no matter what, and therefore we shouldn’t even bother to try, and just accept our bloody deaths at the hands of extremists as inevitable? You should accept that you’re not going to die a bloody death at the hands of extremists, and stop throwing everyone under the bus in a misguided attempt to save yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/167 "2014-05-30T10:46:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So your argument is what - that the government will never be able to protect us from terrorism no matter what, and therefore we shouldn’t even bother to try, and just accept our bloody deaths at the hands of extremists as inevitable? My argument is what I said. The government clearly has sufficient resources already, Whining for more is at best irrelevant and at worst ass-covering.for its own incompetence – in either case, the request should be summarily rejected, with a notice that repeat requests are punishable by pee-pee whacking. The way to improve the government’s ability to do its job is to consistently apply this sort of tough love to its personnel. Your enabler attitude will merely cause worse in the future – especially given the fact that your preferred policy is leaving the table of relevant options as these disclosures encourage the deployment of proper security techniques and technologies. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/168 "2014-05-30T10:51:19Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You should accept that you’re not going to die a bloody death at the hands of extremists Ah, but what if some extremist needs a kidney and he won’t donate one? What then, smarty pants? (Yeah, yeah; I know. I’m _trying_ not to go beyond the “30% serious, 70% mock” point. Will an express statement that I’m highlighting the cowardly and paranoid worldview behind big-government apologetics count toward the 30%?) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/169 "2014-05-30T10:52:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Exactly. You do _not_ have a right to habeas corpus. The writ of habeas corpus is a _privilege_ which may be suspended in the pursuance of public safety. > > Thank you for agreeing with me. What language do you speak? I haven’t found one where “pursuance” and “require” are synonymous… Interpreting the Constitution on the assumption that it is written in English rather than Smaptese, the loophole clearly does not apply to this case. There is no requirement to suspend the writ of habeas corpus; instead, what is required is the application of discipline to our servants in government, denying their power-mongering and ass-covering requests and directing them to the resources already available to them which they have (as noted above) miserably failed to utilize properly. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/170 "2014-05-30T11:37:32Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You should accept that you’re not going to die a bloody death at the hands of extremists, and stop throwing everyone under the bus in a misguided attempt to save yourself. Some people _do_ die a bloody death at the hands of extremists. 100% of those people are defined as “you” from their own perspective. Therefore, there is a non-zero possibility that “you” will die a bloody death at the hands of extremists. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/171 "2014-05-30T11:38:40Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > My argument is what I said. The government clearly has sufficient resources already If it had sufficient resources, we wouldn’t be debating the issue, because the bombing would not have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/172 "2014-05-30T14:29:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If it had sufficient resources, we wouldn’t be debating the issue, because the bombing would not have happened. Wow, you’ve managed to come up with an “argument” even dumber than the ones you’ve been presenting. I didn’t think you had it in you. Well, if somebody ever _does_ come up a bit short on this month’s mortgage after returning from Aruba and installing the new 60" flatscreen and getting over the Glenfiddich hangover, I’ll send them your way. You’ll understand that the financial embarrassment isn’t their fault; they simply lack sufficient resources to meet their needs. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/173 "2014-05-30T16:06:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So your argument is what - that the government will never be able to protect us from terrorism no matter what, and therefore we shouldn’t even bother to try, and just accept our bloody deaths at the hands of extremists as inevitable? I think you should accept that you’re 98% safe from terrorism and not try to go for 99% or 100%. One can be safe enough, I know I am, and so are you. It costs too much in money and freedoms to go for another 1% of safety. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/174 "2014-05-30T18:53:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Exactly. You do _not_ have a right to habeas corpus. The writ of habeas corpus is a _privilege_ which may be suspended in the pursuance of public safety. > > Thank you for agreeing with me. You really are dumber than a brick, aren’t you? Let me repeat that verbiage for you: “The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.” What part of “shall not be suspended” did you not understand? Or are you having difficulty understanding that “unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion” =/= whenever you feel it’s in the pursuance of public safety? Because the last time I checked the calander it wasn’t 1861 or 1943, the US isn’t facing rebellion or invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/175 "2014-05-30T19:44:58Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think you should accept that you’re 98% safe from terrorism and not try to go for 99% or 100%. One can be safe enough, I know I am, and so are you. It costs too much in money and freedoms to go for another 1% of safety. Especially given the obvious fact that a government that slips free of its leash is itself a greater threat to safety than any rag-tag band of troglodytes can dream of being. [An interesting and chilling insight:](http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/may/27/-sp-privacy-under-attack-nsa-files-revealed-new-threats-democracy) > [@](#): > > In the third chapter of his History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon gave two reasons why the slavery into which the Romans had tumbled under Augustus and his successors left them more wretched than any previous human slavery. In the first place, Gibbon said, the Romans had carried with them into slavery the culture of a free people: their language and their conception of themselves as human beings presupposed freedom. And thus, says Gibbon, for a long time the Romans preserved the sentiments – or at least the ideas – of a freeborn people. In the second place, the empire of the Romans filled all the world, and when that empire fell into the hands of a single person, the world was a safe and dreary prison for his enemies. As Gibbon wrote, to resist was fatal, and it was impossible to fly. > > The power of that Roman empire rested in its leaders’ control of communications… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/176 "2014-05-30T22:18:08Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You really are dumber than a brick, aren’t you? Let me repeat that verbiage for you: “The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.” What part of “shall not be suspended” did you not understand? Or are you having difficulty understanding that “unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion” =/= whenever you feel it’s in the pursuance of public safety? Because the last time I checked the calander it wasn’t 1861 or 1943, the US isn’t facing rebellion or invasion. US citizens are stealing classified information from our government and handing it over willy nilly to terrorists and foreign dictators. How is that not rebellion? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/177 "2014-05-30T23:26:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > US citizens are stealing classified information from our government and handing it over willy nilly to terrorists and foreign dictators. How is that not rebellion? [“There’s glory for you!”](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12/12-h/12-h.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/178 "2014-06-01T01:21:20Z")
There’s a nice knock-down argument for you! ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/179 "2014-06-01T19:39:12Z")
You know, you’re right **Smapti**. Fuck habeas corpus, back in the 60s we should have held The Beetles and The Rolling Stones without charges and thrown them down in the deepest darkest hole without legal recourse. I mean were they not causing teenagers to rebel with their rock music? Is that not rebellion? Were they not described as the British Invasion? You can’t make up the meaning of words, especially words that have specific legal definitions. Well you can, but you wind up sounding functionally retarded. But let me guess, you think Snowden is guilty of treason, right? > [@Smapti](#): > > And the search results described an incident in which the NSA proved to be fully capable of policing its own wrongdoers without anyone resorting to treason to “expose” it. Why am I not surprised? Try reading your fucking [Constitution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#United_States) once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/180 "2014-06-02T15:20:15Z")
The hilarious upshot is the result: [the Snowden disclosures are actually _facilitating_, not hindering, legitimate surveillance of terrorist networks](http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/05/al-qaedas-new-homebrew-crypto-apps-may-make-us-intel-gathering-easier/). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=10)