Smapti is Pitted

The BBQ Pit
1461

Trinopus, sorry I didn’t give a better, more respectful answer; Downton was on.

The false equivalence does not exist, in my mind, because transgenderism and racism were not the things being compared. The only comparison I intended was between Smapti’s intellectual honesty and the parents’ moral integrity.

(You may not have read the thread on Leelah Alcorn, Smapti was getting beaten up because he refused to concede that gender is socially constructed. Anyway, the arguments were getting ridiculous but he held his ground. It wasn’t even an argument I agree with, I think gender is socially constructed, but good for him.)

Therefore, I constructed a scenario where holding to moral principles (or intellectual honesty) would be unquestionably the correct thing to do (opposing racism). I then typed up (I think I would be flattering myself to call it, “writing”) a little tale and used parallels from the discussion on transgenderism. I realize that reinforced the perception that I was comparing racism to transgenderism, but that’s so palpably idiotic and offensive that I didn’t really think people would hold that impression long, just that they would recognize the parallels (e.g., “she didn’t choose racism, racism chose her,” “consistent, persistent, and insistent,” etc.)

Anyway, Smapti’s intellectual honesty prevails as the heroic position, until the child dies, which had to happen for the post to make sense as an attack on him, and therefore appropriate for The Pit.

Obviously, there are many problems with the post. I think the biggest one is that if read as a comparison of racism and transgenderism, it attributes moral opposition of transgenderism to Smapti. He never wrote that! People attacked him for it, but I didn’t read that from him! It’s a pretty shitty trick to post a facetious attack that’s supposed to read as a defense when it doesn’t defend him and makes more accusations.

Also, if people clearly saw me drawing a parallel between racism and transgenderism, that would be my fault, and the defense, “Well, you should know better” rings hollow. It was intended to be Pro-Intellectual Honesty, not Anti-Transgenderism.

1462

Well, I’ll take it on faith that you meant it that way, but, doggone, it sure read to me exactly the opposite way. It read as an ugly parody of a child wanting to choose her sex, against the wishes of the parents insisting on his sex. It took the language of sex-identity choice, and cast it in terms of racism as a choice.

It was poisonously funny, I want to say that. It was a good parody. But…it seemed to be pointed exactly 180 degrees away from what you now say you meant.

(I think this is why iiandyiiii said, “When the snark goes 360.” The parody wasn’t 180 degrees away from Smapti’s views…but 360 degrees away from it! Again, that’s how it appeared to me, and I don’t think I’m alone here.)

I am willing, now, to accept your word on this, and accept what you meant.

May I offer an alternative script, wherein the child is born with a severe defect, and really wants to be healthy, but the parents refuse, because the child was born with it – say, a cleft palate – and that’s how he “naturally belongs.”

“But I’d like to be able to swallow without food going out my nose.”
“Son, you just can’t change your nature that way. God made you as you are.”
“Couldn’t God be wrong?”
“Oh, son, son, can you just listen to yourself? Of course God can never be wrong!”
“I’d really like to be healthy and whole.”
“But then you wouldn’t be you any more.”

etc.

1463

Thanks. Mea maxima culpa.

1464

I’ll follow his lead and apologize for my snark, too, then. But yeah, it really did sound like you were agreeing with Smapti and snarking at the people who had been arguing with him.

1465

aaargh, this is the Pit, what is with the damn love, come on guys, take it outside, or get a room, or something

1466

There must always be a small spot of Yang in the midst of Yin, and of Yin in the midst of Yang.

“…or what’s a heaven for.”

1467

Why must the only options be “trans people are factually their preferred gender” or “trans people are delusional”?

1468

There are, historically and anthropologically, other options, but unless you somehow think it would be easier to get the entirety of Western civilization to accept there are three or four (or more) distinct genders good luck with that.

1469

If I only had a brain, tra la la(Wizard Of Oz ref not an insult)

In reference to this:

If they believed that why go through expensive and painful surgery, why go through the effort to socially transition?

1470

Can somebody translate that Grotonian post into English please?

1471

It is possible to be perfectly OK with trans people living as their preferred gender without believing that they are their preferred gender.

1472

Your belief has nothing to do with it, as it’s not a preference. They are that gender, and your belief is irrelevant.

You sound like a creationist, or anti-vaxxer, or something. Beliefs don’t trump facts.

1473

I’m getting that we should celebrate intellectual honesty, regardless of how it is wielded.

1474

It’s also possible to be perfectly OK with gay marriage without believing that they are actually, really married.

In short, believe what you want. But if 95% (which we’re probably not at yet, for either marriage or gender) of language speakers use a certain meaning for the word “gender”, then that’s what that word means, even if you disagree.

That’s how language works.

1475

I’ll clarify – we’re not at 95% now, most likely, as far as use of the word “gender”, but we might be at 30% or 50%… and even if only 30% of the population uses a certain definition, it’s still a valid meaning that will probably show up in the dictionary.

So, Smapti, you can believe that the word doesn’t have this meaning, but if millions disagree, then they are right and you are wrong.

1476

Is every single man who wants to live as a woman factually female, without any exceptions? Are there any men who live as women and are not female? If so, is there something wrong with that?

1477

Don’t know, don’t know, and no. So what? How is this relevant to the question of whether transgender people are truly the gender they say they are?

1478

No, as we’re not talking about men who want to live as women, but women who want to live as women. I’m not even sure that “men who want to live as women” is really a thing, the point is that those who want to live as women already are women.

Not that there would be anything much wrong with someone who did feel like a man but preferred to appear to others as a woman, unless they did so to deceive. I believe that deception has occasionally occurred in sports.

1479

As far as I can tell Smapti is playing some kind of semantic game to make a stupid point, I’m tired of trying to engage him.

I give up.

1480

I really don’t see how this represents Grotonian’s position. He or she stated clearly that he or she is arguing a pro-intellectual honesty position, and is defending Smapti for that reason.

How are the parents, in their opposition to treatment for cleft palate, showing the “intellectual honesty” that Grotonian wants to celebrate?