# Smapti, Kabbalah, And Cultural Appropriation **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2025, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724 "2025-06-16T21:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/81 "2025-06-17T12:33:54Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Yeah. If you read the original thread, **Dr Strangelove** hints that it is all some April Fool’s prank and we have all been whooshed. I respond ‘Oh. That makes sense. Nevermind.’ Then, **Smapti** says that the date is just a coincidence and he is very serious. He is a weird fucking dude. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/82 "2025-06-17T13:10:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If someone takes parts of one practice and changes them to find sense in them, they might be “nonsensical at best” to you, but clear it’s sensible to them–and there’s no objective sensibility to religious practice. Again, the average religion comes with basic tenets. “There is no God but God, and Mohammed is HIs prophet.” “Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, taught and performed miracles, suffered and died, and then rose and ascended to heaven.” Judaism has basic tenets too of course. Kabbalah has it’s own set. If you do not believe the basic tenets of Kabbalah, why attempt to practice it? If you don’t believe the basic tenest of Kaballah, is what you are doing even properly called Kabbalah? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/83 "2025-06-17T13:25:13Z")
Cultural appropriation is dismissed too easily by those who have never experienced it, but it is also an accusation too carelessly and broadly made. Like “woke” it is a simple concept – be respectful and aware of others who aren’t like you – that was taken to an extreme where it became silly, but that extreme was made into an excuse for ridiculing and dismissing the whole. It would be nice if there was a hard and fast rule for defining it, but as far as I know, there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/84 "2025-06-17T13:47:39Z")
I have a problem with cultural misappropriation. Simple cultural appropriation is fine. It’s why we don’t still live in the stone age. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/85 "2025-06-17T13:56:28Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Why do Native Americans (or indigenous people of any nation) view the unconversant and poorly rendered application of their rituals in service of sports and other amusements offensive? Because it makes a mockery of their beliefs and traditions, and not even one that is an intentional satire informed by an actual understanding of the background of those traditions but rather from the implication that their opinions and beliefs don’t even merit enough consideration to learn about them. Bit of a sidetrack, but I feel like sports mascots are a separate issue that shouldn’t really get tied up in the idea of cultural appropriation. Sports teams tend to follow a handful of patterns – they can be named after something relevant to their community (the Brewers, the Astros, the Jazz, the Cardinals), after something specific to the team itself (the Reds, the Yankees, the Athletics), or after something _scary_ (Lions, Tigers, and Bears, oh my! Oh, and also Redskins or Indians). There’s a difference between, say, a sports team naming themselves “the Persians” and appropriating aspects of Persian culture in a manner that’s disrespectful, and a team naming themselves “the Terrorists” and dressing up in stereotypical Muslim garb. The former is insensitive, the latter is using stereotypes in a hostile manner. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/86 "2025-06-17T13:57:37Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > He’s a stupid asshole doing some dumb shit. This. As a jew its incredibly offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/87 "2025-06-17T14:11:09Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > If you do not believe the basic tenets of Kabbalah, why attempt to practice it? Again: because whatever you’re doing brings meaning and happiness to your life. Honestly, the world is full of people who don’t really believe the basic tenets of their religion, but participate in the rituals for that reason. > [@](#): > > If you don’t believe the basic tenest of Kaballah, is what you are doing even properly called Kabbalah? Probably not. I think @Smapti has said as much. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/88 "2025-06-17T14:46:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again: because whatever you’re doing brings meaning and happiness to your life. Honestly, the world is full of people who don’t really believe the basic tenets of their religion, but participate in the rituals for that reason. We have had numerous threads on atheism and Judaism. As a general rule, Jews are commanded to do certain things. We are commanded not to do certain things. We are not commanded to _believe_ anything. There are entire Reconstructionist congregations that are effectively atheist. Being thankful you have food before and after every meal? That’s a good idea. No committing murder? Also a good idea. Whether you believe thos rules come from God or that God exists, they are good rules. But, again, Kabbalh is based on believing a few things. Without those beliefs, the whole thing is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/89 "2025-06-17T14:53:21Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > But, again, Kabbalh is based on believing a few things. Without those beliefs, the whole thing is pointless. Pointless to whom? To God? To the Centralized Kabbalh Association? To physicists? To you? To Smapti? You keep saying “again,” as if the only problem is that I missed it the first time. It’s not that I missed it: it’s that _it’s not relevant_ what traditional Kabbalah is based on. Because religious practice only derives meaning from the internal states of its practitioners, it’s not relevant what other people’s internal states are. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/90 "2025-06-17T14:57:47Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Bit of a sidetrack, but I feel like sports mascots are a separate issue that shouldn’t really get tied up in the idea of cultural appropriation. In my opinion, Native American sports mascots are the ones that come _closest_ to “cultural appropriation” being an appropriate term. The term “appropriation” carries connotations of a scarce resource, where if you appropriate it for yourself, you’re taking it away from someone else. Since there were systematic attempts to destroy Native American culture but not those same attempts at the same time to disallow the use of it in symbolism, that _does_ feel a bit like trying to take something from someone else for your exclusive use. I wouldn’t say it’s a perfect parallel, since the bits of culture used and denied may be different, but it fits the connotations of the word “appropriation” moreso than just using bits of someone else’s culture without saying that they can’t continue to use it. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/91 "2025-06-17T15:04:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You keep saying “again,” as if the only problem is that I missed it the first time. It’s not that I missed it: it’s that _it’s not relevant_ what traditional Kabbalah is based on. Because religious practice only derives meaning from the internal states of its practitioners, it’s not relevant what other people’s internal states are. Ah, sorry I misunderstood. I disagree completely. We can debate who should follow what practices and how they should follow them. In general, there is plenty of room for debate. There are parts of most religious practices that can reasonably be removed or changed. But, IMHO some practices have a important cores without which, you’ve got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/92 "2025-06-17T15:05:36Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > But, IMHO some practices have a important cores without which, you’ve got nothing. If you’ve got some sort of satisfaction or insight from the practices, is that “nothing”? What else can you possibly get from the practices? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/93 "2025-06-17T15:24:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What else can you possibly get from the practices? Learn great mystical secrets and acquire great power: > [@DocCathode](#): > > There is no God but the God of Abraham. > God gave the entirety of the Torah (even the parts that hadn’t happened yet) to Moses on Mount Sinai. > Hebrew is sacred and mystically potent in a way no other language is. > The Hebrew letters of the Torah (again the same as when given to Moses on Moun Sinia) reveal great mystical secrets and great power. Do you personally believe all the things you wrote here, @DocCathode ? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/94 "2025-06-17T16:05:26Z")
I used to know this guy who was really into alternate health stuff. But his main jam was reiki, a bit of woo out of Japan about healing people by moving “energy” around in their body. Bunch of bullshit, of course, but he never tried to push it on me, and I wasn’t looking to pick fights with the guy, so I never got into it with him when he’d talk about this stuff. Anyway, at one point, he was beefing with another guy in the health-woo field, specifically about cultural appropriation. The guy I knew was White, y’see, and reiki was dreamed up by Asians, and this was a _problem_. It always seemed to me that the other guy was basically admitting that reiki was bullshit. Because it its real - if human bodies really do have energy fields that can be manipulated by vaguely waving your hands over someone’s body, and that this practice has an observable, measurable affect on a person’s health - then it’s not “cultural appropriation” if someone outside the originating culture does it, no more than washing your hands is cultural appropriation because the germ theory of disease was invented by a European. Or its not real, in which case, I find it hard to give a shit. It’s about as important as a fight in any other fandom, and there’s no particular reason anyone outside the fandom should pick a side in the fight. I can’t help feel this is basically the same situation. Either Kaballah is a legitimate method to understanding fundamental truths about the universe, or it’s a bunch of bullshit. If it’s the former, it should be open to absolutely anyone to explore, and it should be open to revision and experimentation in order to refine whatever process it uses to reveal those truths. Or its some bullshit some guy thought up because it sounded cool, and it has no more real-world moral weight than arguing whether balrogs have wings or not. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/95 "2025-06-17T16:08:13Z")
Note that **Smapti** has chsnged the title of his thread. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/96 "2025-06-17T17:03:53Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Why do Native Americans (or indigenous people of any nation) view the unconversant and poorly rendered application of their rituals in service of sports and other amusements offensive? In the case of the Kabbalah rituals and how they’ve been refined or bastardized, practitioners still have the same general goal, to be closer to their god or find some spiritual peace. Braves fans doing their tomahawk chop or “war cry” are playing dress up. Reasonable people can argue that any changes to a spiritual practice are bad (although I personally disagree) but you can’t argue those two examples are the same. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It is analogous to people making up bizarre inerpretations of quantum mechanics without actually mastering the mathematics behind quantum mechanics. Others have pointed out why this is a bad analogy, but I’ll add one more reason. Are you saying people would be _offended_ by someone who makes bad conclusions based on not understanding QM? I know some physicists, and they would be exasperated and think the guy is an idiot, but they wouldn’t be offended. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/97 "2025-06-17T17:12:05Z")
For instance, I mentioned in passing something called “Hermetic Kabbalah”. The name is provocative, but the people who came up with those ideas in the first place did not necessarily call it that— however they were syncretists who studied Jewish mysticism, among many many other things, and genuinely desired to understand something. There could be a difference between a scholar/philosopher making a genuine effort and someone who repeats mystical-sounding buzzwords because they think it sounds cool but do not even make the effort to understand what they are talking about. > [@TroutMan](#): > > they would be exasperated and think the guy is an idiot, but they wouldn’t be offended. Perhaps the risk is their nonsense being confused with the real thing by the public. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/98 "2025-06-17T17:29:32Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Again, altering Kabbalah to ‘work’ with another religion makes no sense all. People have been doing it for a very, very long time though. Since the Renaissance apparently. By way of comparison, Jewish mysticism was formalized into the Kabbalah in Medieval times, c. 1100-1300. Wiki is my cite. So we’re discussing dueling traditions going back 500 or 900 years. Honestly, I’m not sure how I feel about it, as we’re discussing non-central aspects of 2 or more religious traditions. I reject the concept of cultural appropriation, but part of freedom involves the ability to say, “No, you’re doing it wrong and you are confused.” Part of sanity too, broadly speaking. Anyway, props to Smapti for altering his thread title. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/99 "2025-06-17T17:31:38Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Others have pointed out why this is a bad analogy, but I’ll add one more reason. Are you saying people would be _offended_ by someone who makes bad conclusions based on not understanding QM? I know some physicists, and they would be exasperated and think the guy is an idiot, but they wouldn’t be offended. I’m sure that there are physicists who get offended when people take their life work, and use it to argue for the validity of crystal healing, or whatever. And I can’t blame them for feeling that way. But, I think the crucial difference is that the people offended by it can say, “That’s objectively wrong, and I can prove it.” They _don’t_ say, “Only people who are culturally German can make up shit about quantum physics.” ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2025, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/100 "2025-06-17T17:44:01Z")
Maybe we should have a little compassion here. Smapti seems to be a person with a lot of problems, maybe deeply disturbed. He appears to be looking for an ‘answer’. As far as I can see though, there is no ‘answer’. Best we can do is follow the Golden Rule. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724.md?page=6)