# Smapti, Kabbalah, And Cultural Appropriation **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2025, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724 "2025-06-16T21:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/141 "2025-06-18T21:43:41Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > AFAIK Christianity is much more about having the correct beliefs and intentions, and following the spirit of the law, while in Judaism it’s comparatively more important to follow the letter of the law. In my experience, it’s more that Judaism doesn’t believe there’s a valid distinction to be made between “letter” and “spirit.” ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/142 "2025-06-18T21:45:52Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > When the person doing the claiming _also_ doesn’t believe those tenets, I think would call it that (maybe with a dash of “white knighting”). I would not. As I said above, I also objected whenever my beloved wore a bindi. > [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Why? Because religion is more important to you, personally, than fandom? No, because while there are sometimes debates about what specifically makes a person a member of a religion, the general requirements are usually well known and agreed upon. If I can prove my Mom was Jewish, then there is no arguing that I am a Jew. Various Christian groups have different requirements for being a member of that specific group. Fandoms don’t have well known and agreed upon requirments. Somebody could reasonably argue ‘I have invested more time, energy and money in this fandom. I have read all the books and know more about it.’ But saying that unless somebody else has done all those things, they are not really a fan? That is both arbitrary and nonsensical. > [@SuntanLotion](#): > > Does it give you happiness to keep ranting about how wrong he is? At this point, I’m ranting mostly about the people who continue to disagree with me. _Smapti_ had the word Kabbalah taken out of the title of his thread. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/143 "2025-06-18T21:53:12Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > No, because while there are sometimes debates about what specifically makes a person a member of a religion, the general requirements are usually well known and agreed upon. Wow. That’s… I mean, I don’t have words for how dramatically and completely incorrect this statement is. Like, “Who counts as a Christian?” was one of the primary motive forces behind European conflict for more than a millennium. The concept of “gatekeeping” is absolutely applicable to the concept of religion. It’s just that we don’t usually talk about it in such prosaic terms as “gatekeeping,” preferring instead terms like, “inquisition,” or “witch burning.” But the basic concept in play is pretty much identical. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/144 "2025-06-18T21:53:18Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I would be rather surprised if Dr Justin Sledge left it at saying [omitted quote by me] > without givins any explanation of why he feels that way. I provided a link with note of time stamp. Are you surprised? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/145 "2025-06-18T21:54:22Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#): > > …People are sometimes surprised to learn that a non-Christian or even an atheist can perform a baptism. As long as he or she says the correct words (“I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”) and puts “living water” (that is, water that flows in some manner) in contact with the body of the person being baptized, then the baptism is real. Good to know. If I’m ever together with a person who fears he’s about to die and wants to be baptized, it’s nice to know that i can do it. (And despite not believing in the power of baptism myself, i would certainly attempt the ritual for someone who sincerely desired it.) ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/146 "2025-06-18T21:58:01Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > No, because while there are sometimes debates about what specifically makes a person a member of a religion, the general requirements are usually well known and agreed upon. What about syncretic religions, that take a bit from here and bit from there? That’s how religions have formed and changed for millennia, even your own. Are you a purist, are religious thoughts and rituals never allowed to mingle? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/147 "2025-06-18T22:19:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Wow. That’s… I mean, I don’t have words for how dramatically and completely incorrect this statement is. Like, “Who counts as a Christian?” was one of the primary motive forces behind European conflict for more than a millennium. Hell, we still argue over it, even if it’s not as ugly as the 16th to 18th centuries. And of course before that, the Great Schism between Western and Eastern over a number of issues, condemnation of Arianism and Gnosticism as heresies (a bit odd for the latter considering John 1 and I’m still not really clear on what makes the Mormons somehow not Arian, plus everything else about that religion), to even Emo Philips joke about how one level of disagreement is too much for some. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/148 "2025-06-18T22:23:21Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > As I said above, I also objected whenever my beloved wore a bindi. Wtf? You objected when your _Indian_ girlfriend wore a bindi? Because she wasn’t doing it the Right Way according to you, the white man? Every time you post in this thread it just makes you look worse. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/149 "2025-06-18T22:45:33Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > while there are sometimes debates about what specifically makes a person a member of a religion, the general requirements are usually well known and agreed upon. Oh my. This is approaching parody. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/150 "2025-06-18T22:59:35Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > No, because while there are sometimes debates about what specifically makes a person a member of a religion, the general requirements are usually well known and agreed upon… Various Christian groups have different requirements for being a member of that specific group. > [@Miller](#): > > Wow. That’s… I mean, I don’t have words for how dramatically and completely incorrect this statement is. Like, “Who counts as a Christian?” was one of the primary motive forces behind European conflict for more than a millennium. “Who counts as a Christian?”, is a different question than, “Who is a member of the Roman Catholic Church”. The latter is agreed because the Roman Catholic Church makes the rules. I don’t think the Inquisition was about, “Who is Christian?”: it was more a matter of who is a heretic. Heresy is, “an opinion chosen by human preference contrary to holy scripture, publicly avowed and obstinately held”, a conscious intellectual choice not a private doubt," according to one approach. I mean Catholics and Protestants agreed that the other _claimed_ to be Christian. The turmoil wasn’t based on disagreements about what chapel you belonged to, but whether the chapel’s teachings were [heretical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/151 "2025-06-18T23:43:50Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Claiming some one who is not a member of a particular religion and does not believe the basic tenets that are requirement to perform a specific ritual should not perform that ritual? Doc, I’m somewhat uncomfortable with what Smapti is doing, too. I would much prefer that he study Judaism in general, then move on to the more esoteric bits, in a methodical manner. I, too, am made uncomfortable by his appropriation of Jewish mysticism on some level although not to the same degree that you are. On the other hand, I think there’s an argument to be made that he’s getting this second or third (or more) handed so the initial offense took place long ago and he’s not exactly doing Kabbalah. More Cabala or whatever alternate spelling is being used. And this is very much limited to him alone. Other than talking about about what he’s doing he’s not trying to attract followers or intending to profit off it. A part of me prefers that if he must do this he truly keep it to himself, but perhaps the talking about it/posting serves as a motivational method for him, which leads into my final paragraph. As you know, Doc, a lot of rules in Judaism go out the window when it comes to preserving human life. Smapti got a very nasty health scare that, if he had not paid attention to it, could have cost him his life. If performing a distorted, slightly (or more than slightly) offensive version of what was originally an esoteric Jewish ritual saves this man’s life then… I think in my framework of Judaic understanding (which, admittedly, is thin and I am absolutely no expert) it is allowable, just as eating non-kosher food in a truly life-or-death situation would be permitted, nay, mandatory to preserve human life. That doesn’t mean we have to like it, or approve of it, but I do think we have to _allow_ it if this improves his health and/or could be life-saving for him. I don’t think he’s going to get some spiritual revelation out of this, but if enables him to give up alcohol for good, helps him lose weight, improve his diet, and makes him healthier well, there’s some good to be had there. It sure as hell beats “cultural appropriation” for corporate profit or mocking the beliefs of others. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2025, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/152 "2025-06-18T23:45:41Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Good to know. If I’m ever together with a person who fears he’s about to die and wants to be baptized, it’s nice to know that i can do it. (And despite not believing in the power of baptism myself, i would certainly attempt the ritual for someone who sincerely desired it.) I hadn’t known this either. I wasn’t surprised that people other than priests could do baptisms, but I would have expected you’d have to be a Christian, and that being an atheist and never baptised myself would be disqualifying. I guess I’d be willing to try performing one in that situation, but I’d feel like a fraud. I wonder if being religious is necessary to care about cultural appropriation? I just don’t get it, and the more widely accepted examples all seem to have a religious or spiritual component. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2025, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/153 "2025-06-19T00:04:51Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I hadn’t known this either. I wasn’t surprised that people other than priests could do baptisms, but I would have expected you’d have to be a Christian, and that being an atheist and never baptised myself would be disqualifying. I guess I’d be willing to try performing one in that situation, but I’d feel like a fraud. Some guy named John used to Baptize people and he was Jewish and not a priest. I really don’t understand the belief in a God who favors adherence to regulations over what God must be able to see in their hearts. Luckily I’m an agnatheist and don’t worry about it. I think you shouldn’t feel like a fraud for helping someone harmlessly find peace within themselves before dying. You should be commended for that and hope other atheists wouldn’t judge you for it in the manner the religious so often use. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2025, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/154 "2025-06-19T02:49:48Z")
Fwiw, John the Baptist was almost certainly dunking people in a mikvah, a ritual that Jews continue to perform today, to spiritually cleanse themselves. I wouldn’t feel like a fraud if i baptized someone. But I’m an agnostic, not an atheist. Maybe I’m helping that person make peace with his God. I’m okay with that. And maybe I’m just helping him make peace with himself. I’m good with that, too. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2025, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/155 "2025-06-19T04:27:14Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > “Who counts as a Christian?”, is a different question than, “Who is a member of the Roman Catholic Church”. The latter is agreed because the Roman Catholic Church makes the rules. I don’t think the Inquisition was about, “Who is Christian?”: it was more a matter of who is a heretic. Heresy is, “an opinion chosen by human preference contrary to holy scripture, publicly avowed and obstinately held”, a conscious intellectual choice not a private doubt," according to one approach. Not really seeing how any of this changes my point one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2025, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/156 "2025-06-19T06:03:35Z")
Fun fact - Kabbalah itself didn’t spring up wholesale from the mind of the first practitioner. There’s clearly elements there outside Judaism - from Neoplatonism, Zoroastrianism, Babylonian magic, etc. So is Kabbalah _itself_ cultural appropriation? Or just sparkling syncretism. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2025, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/157 "2025-06-19T06:09:24Z")
You are all forgetting the most important part of any religion: You must believe exactly how I tell you. Nevermind helping your neighbor, being a good person or any of that. Comply exactly with my petty rules or else. This is what the OP is about. Cutting the egg on the wrong side. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2025, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/158 "2025-06-19T08:58:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I think you shouldn’t feel like a fraud for helping someone harmlessly find peace within themselves before dying. You should be commended for that and hope other atheists wouldn’t judge you for it in the manner the religious so often use. Thanks. You’re right, but I don’t think atheists are really less judgy than religious people. People do so love to judge each other! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2025, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/159 "2025-06-19T10:35:39Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > You are all forgetting the most important part of any religion: > > You must believe exactly how I tell you. That is the most important part of Christianity, Islam, and a variety of cults. It is _not_ a universal feature of religion. As has been mentioned in numerous threads on Judaism, Judaism is much more concern about how you _behave_ than your personal belief or lack of it. Same for a lot of other more ritual-based and behavior-regulating religions. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2025, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724/160 "2025-06-19T10:53:56Z")
And we are not having this conversation in a 100+ post thread about how some random dude is doing religion wrong? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-kabbalah-and-cultural-appropriation/1019724.md?page=9)