# Smart Electricity Meters are bad news **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762 "2013-09-13T12:58:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/21 "2013-09-13T16:50:42Z")
I, for one, tremble in fear at the concept of the day on which a private company from which I am buying a product is capable of knowing exactly what they’ve been selling me and when. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/22 "2013-09-13T17:03:34Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Your last sentence is absolutely correct. As with so many other innovations, this one is entirely to benefit the seller and has only downside for the consumer. … The two can co-exist. The company benefits only with they can use this inofrmation to motivate consumer behavioral change. They want to be producing at near base generation capacity as much of the time as possible. They do not want to have to run the more expensive peakers too much and do not want to strain their transmission capacity. That means motivating consumers to shift consumption some. Doing that requires incentivizing us which they can do with carrots (we save) while still making more profit in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/23 "2013-09-13T17:11:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I, for one, tremble in fear at the concept of the day on which a private company from which I am buying a product is capable of knowing exactly what they’ve been selling me and when. Save your tremble for when they can track exactly what you \*do \*with the product, as is increasingly the case. Y’okay with that? > [@DSeid](#): > > The two can co-exist. The company benefits only with they can use this inofrmation to motivate consumer behavioral change. Yes, shared motivation and benefit _can_ co-exist, and few such things come without extensive marketing campaigns explaining how wonderful it is for you, yes _you_, Joe Consumer. There are few whose consumer benefits are actually significant; for most, the sole purpose is increased profit at the consumer’s expense and all other rewards are irrelevant, imaginary or pure chance. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/24 "2013-09-13T17:13:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I, for one, tremble in fear at the concept of the day on which a private company from which I am buying a product is capable of knowing exactly what they’ve been selling me and when. Yup, that pretty much sums it up. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/25 "2013-09-13T18:19:33Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > However, you are underestimating how much information can be gleaned from a detailed readout of power usage. Engineers can “read” equipment operation by watching power draw and little else; if your recorded electrical pattern shows certain kinds of signatures, especially ones that could be ground-truthed to your specific appliances and equipment, it could be quite telling. Well, you’ve convinced me that there’s a real possibility for embarrassment here. Even now, I can picture the guys at the electric company: “Holy crap, this guy vacuums like twice a year!” ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/26 "2013-09-13T18:30:57Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Just wait until they put smart water meters on your toilet. > > They’ll be able to monitor your every movement… Ha, I’ve already out smarted them, I just don’t flush all the time! ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/27 "2013-09-13T22:25:21Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > Ha, I’ve already out smarted them, I just don’t flush all the time! Noticed any laxative ads popping up in your email/facebook accounts lately? Just sayin’. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/28 "2013-09-13T22:53:38Z")
> [@Edward\_The\_Head](#): > > Ha, I’ve already out smarted them, I just don’t flush all the time! Confusing them by making them believe that you don’t give a shit. Lots of people worried about smart meters as an invasion of privacy. Sounds like it is a big movement after all! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/29 "2013-09-13T23:08:49Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Depending on how you define ‘right to privacy on your electricity use’. We had a thread here not that long ago about a woman that pointed a gun at two people trying to swap out her meter for a smart meter. Turns out you’re legally allowed to request that you keep a ‘regular’ meter if you want to. I don’t know if that’s due to your contract with the utility or a local/state/fed law. But all that does is give them less resolution. Instead of knowing how much power you use on a nearly instantaneous basis, it only tells them how much you use between sending someone out (in my area that was every other month). I always wonder why they “send out” anyone. Even without these real-time smart-meters, it should be technically possible, as of 10 or 20 or even 30 years ago, for the meter to transmit its readings to power company automatically, every month, via phone lines. And cheaper than hiring meter-readers. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/30 "2013-09-14T09:57:22Z")
Smart meters need to report back the information they collect to a central database. Ostensibly for the purpose of billing and presumably making possible all kinds of new ‘billing plans’ so customers can be incentivised to consume power when it is most cheaply available. However, these devices are capable of a great deal more than this. It is possible that they could recognise the electrical patterns created in the power supply that identify particular appliances. With the householders consent, they could interface with smart plugs and remotely control some devices to reduce their consumption at peak demand. Turning off your refrigerator for ten minutes when they know there is going to be a spike in demand. Potential benefits for supplier and some for the consumer…(lower bills?) If you generate your own power with solar panels or wind turbines you might even make some money (I can dream!) If a smart meter can monitor and control the electrical supply, it is a small extension to do the same with the gas supply and maybe the water as well. So you have this meter, which is in fact a sophisticated monitoring device in your home. It will have its own network connection and report an unknown amount of data to a central database controlled by… Well, if there is one meter used for monitoring and potentially several alternative and competing companies with whom the home owner might have a supply agreement. Then it follows that the data would have to be stored in a neutral area and administered by some independent authority. Of course, if you live in a place where there is only one supplier with a local monopoly, this situation might not apply. They get all your data and use it for their own advantage. Sell it to other companies? These sort of questions are getting quite high on the agenda in many countries. Smart meter rollout programmes are BIG projects. In the UK it is reckoned to be about $20billion. There is also the question of who actually owns this data, who gets to monetise it and what involvement the government and its various agencies will play in all of this. After all, they have to watch over important national infrastructure safeguarding it from harm. Basically the whole thing is a can of worms. Smart meter rollouts in some countries have been halted due to legal challenges over privacy rights. There are arguments over whether it should be voluntary of compulsory. I would like a smartmeter. I would like to own it and also control what data it sends off to whoever I choose to supply electricity or gas. Am I just being finicky? ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/31 "2013-09-14T10:16:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I always wonder why they “send out” anyone. Even without these real-time smart-meters, it should be technically possible, as of 10 or 20 or even 30 years ago, for the meter to transmit its readings to power company automatically, every month, via phone lines. And cheaper than hiring meter-readers. Where I live, last century they put little transmitters on the indoor gas meters and a van drives by once a month and takes a remote reading from the street. There is no electric power going to the meter or transmitter. (I don’t know if the transmitters have some kind of battery inside.) On the other hand, the electric meters are located outside and have a source of power, but the electric company sends out a meter reader each month who walks through people’s back yards and visually inspects the dials and writes down the reading. This makes no sense to me. It seems to me that it would be trivial to automate the electric meter readings and much harder to automate the gas meter readings. But it works the opposite way. Why? I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/32 "2013-09-14T13:02:26Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Smart meters need to report back the information they collect to a central database. Ostensibly for the purpose of billing and presumably making possible all kinds of new ‘billing plans’ so customers can be incentivised to consume power when it is most cheaply available. I’ve had the opportunity to perform quality system audits on the departments of utility companies in the midst of the smart meter changeover. I assure you there is no “ostensibly” about it. There is precisely one reason the government is doing this; to incentivize power conservation. That is absolutely the reason, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Having seen the systems and the people implementing them, having pored over the plans and the rollout agendas and the details and everything, the idea that this is being done for any other reason is just silly. > [@](#): > > However, these devices are capable of a great deal more than this. It is possible that they could recognise the electrical patterns created in the power supply that identify particular appliances. If you are suggesting a smart meter can recognize something unique about a computer’s way of drawing electricity versus a big TV, no, they cannot. The models of smart meter being used by utility companies cannot do that. Certainly a reasonably clever person can look at the patters of overall usage and draw some likely conclusions; if power use jumps at 5-6 PM, that’s when the homeowner is getting home from work. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/33 "2013-09-14T15:41:42Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > **Smart Electricity Meters are bad news** August 29, 2016, 2:14 a.m. GMT: The Smart Electricity Meter becomes self-aware. [But there is hope . . .](http://xkcd.com/1046/) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/34 "2013-09-14T15:56:31Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Is this going to become a huge surveillance network that will intrude upon personal liberty? Do you have cable TV? Are you aware they keep track of what you watch on TV and every time you change the channel? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/35 "2013-09-14T16:11:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There is precisely one reason the government is doing this; to incentivize power conservation. Let me clarify that: _One reason the government is promoting this monitoring is to incentivize power conservation._ One reason, of many, and not limited to goverment interests. As editor, I would have changed your lumpy final clause (I’ze despize ‘-ize’) but that wasn’t where the malformation was. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/36 "2013-09-14T16:14:12Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Let me clarify that: _One reason the government is promoting this monitoring is to incentivize power conservation._ > > One reason, of many, and not limited to goverment interests. That’s an interesting opinion. So what are the other reasons? Having spent days and days examining these programs, I see none of them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/37 "2013-09-14T16:16:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > August 29, 2016, 2:14 a.m. GMT: The Smart Electricity Meter becomes self-aware. > > [But there is hope . . .](http://xkcd.com/1046/) Why do you think they call them _Smart_ Meters? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/38 "2013-09-14T16:19:59Z")
Let me get this straight-The OP is worried that the government is secretly gathering information about him from Smart Meters _while he is using his home computer to access the internet?_ ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/39 "2013-09-14T16:23:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let me get this straight-The OP is worried that the government is secretly gathering information about him from Smart Meters _while he is using his home computer to access the internet?_ Yes. Think of it in pointillist terms. The dots are almost meaningless in themselves, but the more dots you have of more colors, the higher the overall resolution of the image. I am in no way saying that smart meter info will ever be the equivalent of a phone tap, an email slurp or having your license plate continuously tagged as you drive, but it’s one more invasive data stream that will prove to have downsides. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762/40 "2013-09-14T16:28:13Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I am in no way saying that smart meter info will ever be the equivalent of a phone tap, an email slurp or having your license plate continuously tagged as you drive, but it’s one more invasive data stream that will prove to have downsides. What is the worst-case scenario for the power company knowing when I microwave some popcorn? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-electricity-meters-are-bad-news/668762.md?page=3)