# Smart meters - any danger? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 23, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455 "2016-05-23T13:48:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/21 "2016-05-23T18:28:27Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > “radiation” is just a scary word to a lot of people. I think many associate it with nuclear and aren’t aware there is both non-ionizing and ionizing radiation. Or that we wouldn’t be able to see without it. Visible light is a form of radiation. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/22 "2016-05-23T21:21:30Z")
And a much more dangerous form of radiation than radio. ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/23 "2016-05-23T21:25:35Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I don’t know what angle ‘exploitation by terrorists’ they could possibly be referring to. Generally things of this nature are referring to the fact that security isn’t exactly job one. Or job 15. It’s a general problem with “smart” devices of any type, smart meters, smart thermostats, smart lightbulbs, whatever. They will have security flaws for much the same reason browsers have an upgrade every week or so–but devices like that are a lot harder to fix. What will those problems be and what harm can they cause? Dunno. And perhaps “terrorists” may be overblown, but 4chan getting into my smart meter isn’t all that much more comforting. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/24 "2016-05-23T23:05:07Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > The two main dangers are: > > 1] Smart meters make it very very difficult to **dispute your electric bill** \*, and > > 2] No meter reader leaving their car unattended, so we lose a great place to dump extra kittens. \*\*\*\*\*emphasis mine Is there something I’m missing here? How could you ever ‘dispute your electric bill’?! The only difference between a regular vs a ‘smart’ meter is the smart ones transmit their data via wireless to power company trucks (i.e. they don’t have to walk up and physically read each individual house’s meter). But non-smart electric meters are still perfectly accurate. Aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/25 "2016-05-23T23:16:20Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > \*\*\*\*\*emphasis mine > > Is there something I’m missing here? How could you ever ‘dispute your electric bill’?! The only difference between a regular vs a ‘smart’ meter is the smart ones transmit their data via wireless to power company trucks (i.e. they don’t have to walk up and physically read each individual house’s meter). But non-smart electric meters are still perfectly accurate. Aren’t they? Readers make mistakes and MSU (Make Shit Up) all the time. Wireless meters don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/26 "2016-05-23T23:37:40Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I don’t know what angle ‘exploitation by terrorists’ they could possibly be referring to. It’s generally acknowledged that if Ukraine’s power grid had been “smarter”, last December’s [attack](https://www.wired.com/2016/03/inside-cunning-unprecedented-hack-ukraines-power-grid/) would have been harder to recover from. Maybe that’s what “exploitation by terrorists” refers to, but it’s a bit far-fetched. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/27 "2016-05-24T02:12:18Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Readers make mistakes and MSU (Make Shit Up) all the time. > **Wireless meters don’t.** Oh yes they do. Or did. Allegedly. When PG&E began rolling out their smart meters in California some years ago, there were widespread complaints of false readings. Just as with errors by the bank, always in _their_ favor, of course. I have no idea what the evidence of this was or how it would have been substantiated. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/28 "2016-05-24T02:51:57Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Is there something I’m missing here? How could you ever ‘dispute your electric bill’?! People try to all the time. When they can’t, they jam the cost of their time up the utility by demanding that the meter be changed. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/29 "2016-05-24T05:56:02Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I don’t know what angle ‘exploitation by terrorists’ they could possibly be referring to. Do you know what really helps terrorists? Sports bags. Pressure cookers. Cars. Shoes. Clothing. Sunglasses. Cell phones. Landlines. Payphones. Their moms. Electricity. Batteries. Public transport. Libraries. Books. The internet. Email. SMS messages. Freedom of movement. McDonalds. Burger King. Breakfast cereal. Public toilets. Airports. Roads. Bridges. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/30 "2016-05-24T06:12:11Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > And as far as ecological costs related to their manufacture & replacement, huh?! How are smart electric meters any different than any other piece of electronic tech of which the modern world is absolutely flooded with?! I think they mean that there are thousands of perfectly good dumb meters that could last for decades being replaced unnecessarily (in their opinion). Building the unnecessary (in their opinion) meters and scrapping perfectly good meters has an ecological cost. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/31 "2016-05-24T13:01:30Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > I think they mean that there are thousands of perfectly good dumb meters that could last for decades being replaced unnecessarily (in their opinion). Building the unnecessary (in their opinion) meters and scrapping perfectly good meters has an ecological cost. Yeah - that was it. And they said they smart readers had a shorter life, and would need to be replaced more often. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/32 "2016-05-24T13:20:49Z")
One major issue with smart meters raised here in Germany that curiously enough is not among those the OP cites as being on the presentation is privacy: with smart meters there is a possibility of frequent intermediate readings, even with authorized access by the utility, that can reveal a lot of your habits. You don’t even need to communicate for corporations or the state to gather data. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/33 "2016-05-24T13:54:03Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > And, to be completely honest, I really have no REAL idea of the various frequencies my various devices use. For reference, here’s [the Wikipedia article on the electromagnetic spectrum.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum) The table at top right is useful. [ul][li]AM radio is in KHz.[/li][li]FM radio is in MHz.[/li][li]Microwave ovens, Wi-Fi, cell phones, and cordless phones all operate in the GHz range. [/li][li]-The [“millimeter wave” scanners](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter_wave_scanner) the TSA employs at airports use microwave radiation in the hundreds of GHz range.[/li][li]A nice warm campfire (or a hot stove burner) emits infrared radiation in the low THz range.[/li][li]Visible light occupies a rather narrow band in the 300 THz range.[/ul]For the above frequencies, individual photons don’t have enough energy to damage your tissue; the only way they can hurt you is if you get hit by enough of them at once to raise your temperature (e.g. a microwave oven, or sitting too close to the campfire).[/li] Problems begin with ultraviolet radiation (PHz). At/Above this frequency, individual photons can ionize your tissue, damaging DNA and increasing your risk of cancer. The TSA used to employ [low-power X-ray for body scans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_X-ray). Although X-rays are hazardous, the claim was that the power level was extremely low, exposing each passenger to much less than a typical medical X-ray. AFAIK these have been phased out completely. [Smart meters](https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=smart+meter+frequency) are in the GHz range, and they use low-power transmitters, so there’s no conceivable reason to expect physical harm from their radio transmissions. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/34 "2016-05-24T15:44:05Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Yeah - that was it. And they said they smart readers had a shorter life, and would need to be replaced more often. There’s probably some truth to that. The old fashioned dumb meters are basically metal and some coils of wire and not much else. There isn’t much in them that can go wrong. Smart meters have complex electronic semiconductor circuits in them, which are much more delicate in the long run. On the other hand, the dumb meters have two coils of wire, one for voltage and one for current (really old meters only had one for current, but I think most of those are long since gone). These coils make the spinny disk spin, and that’s about it (how’s that for a nice technical explanation… actually I can explain it a lot more if anyone is curious). The smart meters have two A/D converters, one for voltage and one for current, and can record a lot more information about what is going on, like power factor, line noise and sine wave distortion, voltage fluctuations, total load variations, etc. This allows the utility company to get better data about what is going on which helps a lot with preventative maintenance, adjusting the overall power factor, and other things which make the overall system more efficient. So this higher efficiency reduces the environmental impact by reducing the total amount of power that the generating plants have to produce. Plus, smart meters eliminate meter reader jobs, which really sucks if you’re a meter reader, but reduces the overall utility cost for everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/35 "2016-05-24T18:32:15Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > I think they mean that there are thousands of perfectly good dumb meters that could last for decades being replaced unnecessarily (in their opinion). Building the unnecessary (in their opinion) meters and scrapping perfectly good meters has an ecological cost. Oh, ok. I guess. Still seems like we’ll be knee-deep in old cellphones _loooong_ before anything else though… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/36 "2016-05-27T06:51:58Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That’s because Saskatchewan makes everything bigger. The wheats are bigger, the potashes are bigger, and the kilowatts are bigger. Obviously this was caused by the linear accelerator, not by the smart meters. The wheats?? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/37 "2016-05-27T09:40:05Z")
Also spelled wheaties, but the Sask. govt was concerned about its national flour being confused with a breakfast cereal. Sasketchawan spelling is difficult at times. ---
**Author:** ![Jesta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Jesta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jesta)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/38 "2016-05-27T14:57:17Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > The two main dangers are: > > 2] No meter reader leaving their car unattended, so we lose a great place to dump extra kittens. No Pizza delivery near you? I remember my older brother and his mates ordering pizza one night when we had the old metal garbage cans, and tying the neighbours bin lids to the underneath of his car, made all sorts of noises as he drove off! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/39 "2016-05-27T15:05:19Z")
Buy new cans for your neighbour? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455/40 "2016-05-27T15:12:42Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > One major issue with smart meters raised here in Germany that curiously enough is not among those the OP cites as being on the presentation is privacy: with smart meters there is a possibility of frequent intermediate readings, even with authorized access by the utility, that can reveal a lot of your habits. You don’t even need to communicate for corporations or the state to gather data. With absurdities aside like getting cancer from your meter (instead of the dozens of devices it powers, including your cell phone and microwave) - this is the real danger of intelligent/tracking meters. It’s one more invasion of privacy and as a couple of posters have pointed out, it can reveal more than you might think about the home’s activities. In the era of big data, statistical interpretation of both mass use and then individuals against that baseline could turn our domicile walls yet more transparent. But I know, you got nothing to hide and ConEd can come track your juice any time. :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smart-meters-any-danger/755455.md?page=1)