# Smarter dogs and apes: a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674 "2005-03-15T18:39:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/1 "2005-03-15T18:39:56Z")
The Chicago Tribune had a commentary ([you’ll have to register](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/perspective/chi-0503130173mar13,1,2734118.story?coll=chi-newsopinionperspective-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true)) that speaks of increasing the intelligence of dogs and apes through genetic engineering. I’m concerned, and not just because I read Simak’s _City_ or saw “Planet of the Apes.” My concerns stem from familiarity with the behavior of apes and, especially, dogs. It was irresponsible enough, I felt, when I saw a study that involved teaching chimps to use keys and monkey wrenches (actually crescent wrenches but I couldn’t resist). If chimps had human intelligence they could learn to pick locks! After the tragedy two weeks ago I worry enough when buying cupcakes at the store but now there is a chance I will not even be safe baking cupcakes at home. And smart dogs? I have long taken comfort in being smarter than SOME of the creatures in my home. When they are able to outsmart me I might as well stay home licking my crotch while they go to work. But seriously, what advantages and disadvantages would there be to increasing ape and dog intelligence? Is it a great idea or the most horrifying exercise of genetic engineering power since they cloned Hitler? ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/2 "2005-03-15T19:04:32Z")
Cats will be in a lot of trouble. And postmen. I would think a smarter dog would just be better at obeying tricks and such. I imagine there’s limits to what jimmying a few genes can do. Chimps are pretty smart already though. One might think that with a few changes they could figure out the whole language thing, and it would be even harder to say that they’re not sentient. Can I submit a genetically engineered chimp for the Turing test, or does my computer have to be made of transistors? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/3 "2005-03-15T19:07:27Z")
I keep telling people - it’s the dolphins we should be worrying about. Who knows what they’re doing in their secret underwater lairs? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/4 "2005-03-15T19:17:55Z")
(Pssssst! Guys! Don’t forget I had a real debate point hidden in the OP or I’ll get in trouble for being flippant in GD.) ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/5 "2005-03-15T20:29:44Z")
For some reason, Chicago Trib won’t let me register. Does the article say why would smarter dogs be a good idea? Are there things that service dogs can’t do because they’re not smart enough? It seems dogs do their jobs plenty well already. In fact, one of the great things about dogs is their natural obedience to whomever they perceive as their alpha. I’m not sure that would continue with a smarter dog. I’ve had decent sized dogs who probably could have torn me apart had they decided to do so. However, they respected me and obeyed me because they felt I was in control. They never realized that I’d be easy pickings in an actual fight. Would dogs still repect humans if they got smart enough to realize we’re pretty weak with dull teeth? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/6 "2005-03-15T21:14:30Z")
I believe we’ve already gone ahead prototyping mice with human-like brains. Personally, though I don’t know how I feel about the ethical issues that arise in the treatment and well being of these animals, I hope that if this sort of research and application develops, people might have a greater appreciation for the fact that there are no hard dividing lines between animals and us. I don’t think people realize it, but it’s not entirely implausible that we would have the capability to bring a creature into being genetically similar to, say, Lucy. How would we treat it? If we could bring into being a whole range of our ancestors leading back to our common ancestors with apes, where would we draw the line of who we could murder for a nice meal of monkey brains? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/7 "2005-03-15T21:25:20Z")
[Bela Lugosi] "Home . . . I haff no home. Hanted . . . despised . . . liffing like an animal—de jongle is my home! But I vill show the vorld that I can be its master. I shall perfect my own rice of pipple—a rice of super-intelligent dogs and apes vhich vill _conquer the vorld!_ [/Bela Lugosi] ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/8 "2005-03-15T21:34:20Z")
> [@MaddyStrut](#): > > Does the article say why would smarter dogs be a good idea? Actually, it was as much an aside as anything but it got me thinking about the possibilities if it were to happen. But since you TRIED to register and are not just whining about spam and such I’m happy to exerpt it: > [@](#): > > THE HUMAN MIND > Enhance/evolve > > Genetic research holds the keys to heightened human intelligence > > By Ronald Kotulak > Tribune science reporter > Published March 13, 2005 > As scientists discover more of the genes that make the human brain the biggest and smartest on Earth, they also are handing the human race the keys for upgrading the organ of intelligence to daring new heights, possibly even super-IQ babies. > > But they are also the keys to a Pandora’s box filled with an unprecedented assortment of potentially good and bad things, some things likely to shake the foundations of cherished beliefs and hopefully something good. > > Among the sticky questions: Do great apes, our nearest genetic relatives, deserve some sort of secondary citizenship? > > (snip) > > As these genes fall into our hands, society will be faced with ethical and moral questions that will dwarf the controversy over human cloning. > > “It’s where the most challenging social questions will arise of the `Do we want to go there?’ type,” said Maynard Olson, professor of medicine and genome sciences at the University of Washington. > > (snip) > > …they (the genes) can be used to genetically engineer supersmart children, or dogs or cats, for that matter, a possibility that, admittedly, is still far off. > > (snip) > > Can we resist the temptation to manipulate these genes to speed up the slow evolutionary movement toward a better brain? > > (snip) > > Humans have long used breeding to induce genetic changes in animals and plants to dramatically alter their behavior, appearance or nutritional content. > > (snip) > > “Humans evolved their cognitive abilities not due to a few accidental mutations, but rather, from an enormous number of mutations acquired through exceptionally intense selection favoring more complex abilities,” Lahn said. > > The big brain, in a sense, shifted evolution from the survival of the fittest to the survival of the brightest, enabling early humans to advance from an endangered species category to No. 1. The brains of the great apes–gorilla, chimpanzee, bonobo and orangutan–benefited from some of this genetic exuberance, but to a far lesser degree. > > Nevertheless, their cognitive skills are impressive. They can recognize themselves in a mirror. Their social and cultural activities are more complex than those of other animals. Some can use rudimentary tools. > > (snip) > > Great apes have many cognitive abilities that are humanlike, said Varki. “They are deserving of some different kind of attention. They’re not humans. They should not be treated like humans. But they need to be treated considerably differently than other animals.” > > Lahn’s discovery of some of the genes that make the human brain so much better than that of the great apes provides a tool for changing the brain that was not available before. > > (snip) > > The scenario that raises the greatest concern is the possibility of making apes and other animals smarter by genetically engineering them with human brain genes. Their brains can then be studied for new clues to Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s and other brain disorders. > > Putting human brain genes in animals could also help scientists learn more about the great mystery of consciousness. > > But what about the animals? Will a more sentient brain give an ape human-like consciousness trapped in an animal body? Or would you have a thoughtful, clever and linguistically able primate? > > “You’d have to do some serious thinking about the harm that would be done if you went in this direction,” said Northwestern’s Zoloth. “It’s harmful to do meaningless research that doesn’t have an immediate health benefit. You need a very strong reason for creating a more sentient brain in a nonhuman primate.” > [@](#): > > Would dogs still repect humans if they got smart enough to realize we’re pretty weak with dull teeth? Mine don’t respect me all that much to start with but I have a far worse personality than any of them and they seem wired to respond to barks that are worse than bites. That wouldn’t be changed with a bigger brain. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/9 "2005-03-15T21:37:20Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > “They peppered in God’s lo mein . . .” I don’t know how God feels but peppers in lo mein would be good. I’m not so sure about the rice pipple. ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/10 "2005-03-15T21:38:08Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > [Bela Lugosi] "Home . . . I haff no home. Hanted . . . despised . . . liffing like an animal—de jongle is my home! But I vill show the vorld that I can be its master. I shall perfect my own rice of pipple—a rice of super-intelligent dogs and apes vhich vill _conquer the vorld!_ [/Bela Lugosi] God, Eve, I’ve missed you. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/11 "2005-03-15T22:00:38Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > But seriously, what advantages and disadvantages would there be to increasing ape and dog intelligence? Is it a great idea or the most horrifying exercise of genetic engineering power since they cloned Hitler? This is a good OP, IMO. Here are my thoughts: If we increase the level of Chimp intelligence, that will probably increase their consciousness to a level comparable to ours (at least a basic level). If we do this, then what happens to animal testing? Keeping them in cages and the like? At what point is their consciousness high enough to the point where keeping them in zoos would be akin to cruel and unusual punishment (or something similar)? ---
**Author:** ![jeffh3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@jeffh3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffh3000)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/12 "2005-03-15T22:10:34Z")
Well my kneejerk response is “planet of the dogs.” In reality, not science fiction, however, we should ask ourselves, what is the goal. The knowing the angle to take on this is difficult without being able to read the acticle. Current technology will only take this so far today, however if we assume the ability to dramatically increase intelligence, we really have to ask the question “why?” If we assume that the studies are being done today in the hopes of future medical benefits for the human brain, then I would say yes and fear should not stop us from trying. If however, the goal is simply to do it with no goal other than to see how far we can push the envenlope regarding animal intelligence that is another matter. So the goals in mind really make a difference. If you to take this thread on a more fanticastical note, assuming future technology, we also have to ask what parts of intelligence are we trying to stimulate and to what end. The ultimate goal also should never be to simply increase the intelligence of the animal for a goal outside testing for human benefit. Goning into sci fi, for example assuming the technology existed, I am sure there would be someone that would love talking dogs. In this future, lets assume it could be theoreotically possible to only increase the speach center of the brain (and provide needed physical mutations) for dogs to form words, without major increases in cognitive function. I feel that this is somewhat ridiculous and the scientific study to reach this goal is unnecessarily and inappropriate. So dogs will just have to continue begging for food the old fashioned way. Having said this, my first example is much more likely than my futuristic example and I do believe that fear or misunderstanding should not prevent science from moving forward. The just need be able to answer the question as to what the goal is and provide an appropriate response. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/13 "2005-03-15T22:25:39Z")
[Tim Curry]The myth of the Killer Ape is true![/Tim Curry] It sounds like a very bad idea. Chimps (and dogs) are predatory pack animals. They are powerful enough and potentially dangerous enough without the sort of cunning and craftiness that a “rebooted” brain would give them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/14 "2005-03-15T22:27:20Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I believe we’ve already gone ahead prototyping mice with human-like brains. Mice embryos were genetically modified to have brains with “human-like wrinkles”, but there haven’t been any published reports yet about behavioral changes in mature mice. It’s not quite accurate to say they had human-like brains. > [@](#): > > I don’t think people realize it, but it’s not entirely implausible that we would have the capability to bring a creature into being genetically similar to, say, Lucy. How would we treat it? If we could bring into being a whole range of our ancestors leading back to our common ancestors with apes, where would we draw the line of who we could murder for a nice meal of monkey brains? I think I started a thread about this awhile back. It’s a really interesting question. I doubt that Neanderthals could be considered “animals”, and I think that Austalopithicies would be put in zoos, but Erectus would present a real problem. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/15 "2005-03-15T22:31:28Z")
[Pinky]What do you wanna do now?[/Pinky] [Brain]What else? Take over the world[/Brain] :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/16 "2005-03-15T22:33:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think people realize it, but it’s not entirely implausible that we would have the capability to bring a creature into being genetically similar to, say, Lucy. How would we treat it? Well, for one thing, we should let it be in the show at the Ricky’s club. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/17 "2005-03-15T23:13:12Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > [Bela Lugosi] "Home . . . I haff no home. Hanted . . . despised . . . liffing like an animal—de jongle is my home! But I vill show the vorld that I can be its master. I shall perfect my own rice of pipple—a rice of super-intelligent dogs and apes vhich vill _conquer the vorld!_ [/Bela Lugosi] “Bevare…take care…” Wasn’t he great as Karloff’s sidekick? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/18 "2005-03-15T23:24:56Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Is it a great idea or the most horrifying exercise of genetic engineering power since they cloned Hitler? They didn’t clone Hitler. They only saved his brain. Bender, adressing (and pandering to) an audience of human-hating robots: Some said I was too extreme when I called for the annihillation of the human race, as well as some of the more cunning monkeys… ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/19 "2005-03-16T02:19:52Z")
Whenever I see stuff like this the first thing that pops into my mind are “Killer Bees” I mean how many people have died or have been seriously injured because some crack-pot scientist thought they could make a higher yeilding honey bee? ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674/20 "2005-03-16T02:41:14Z")
**I for one welcome our new Canine overlords** Come on somebody had to say it. 😃 On topic, I can think of few good reasons to modify any of our lessor cousins that doesn’t involve using them as a sort of labor force for undesireable tasks, even tasks that may be worthwild on their face. We’ve been down that road, heck we’re still on that road. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smarter-dogs-and-apes-a-good-idea/294674.md?page=2)