# SmashTheState **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731 "2009-07-30T01:00:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/301 "2009-08-01T01:54:24Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > They are, especially given the fact that we have shed five figures of employees in the past year. Purge after purge. Well at least you are still standing. > [@](#): > > Sure. I have plenty of booze. Sounds good to me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/302 "2009-08-01T01:56:20Z")
[Terrence McKenna on the subject of Schizophrenia and Shamanism](http://dotsub.com/view/c0ba01ba-67ca-4433-84fa-5bdd4ce52ade) The best and most succinct description of the difference I have ever heard. “The Shaman is diving, the schizophrenic is drowning.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/303 "2009-08-01T02:03:32Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Being WRONG and lying are two separate things. Yep. If he’d provided cites for his claims and admitted mistakes, that might be one thing. He has, however, done his best to avoid giving cites, distorted their actual content, and in general whined about how he was too cool to provide cites at all for many questions. That he ‘just happens’ to be wrong about everything, willfully, repeatedly, by accident is a bit hard for me to swallow. > [@mswas](#): > > Yes, I agree. But there is a difference between not providing cites, and not providing cites that would satisfy YOU. No. Objectively he did not provide cites that would have backed up his claims. > [@mswas](#): > > Heh. So what do you think his vested interest is in lying to you? Same as in lying to everybody else. Same reason lekatt calls his scary dream a “near death” experience. He’s spinning bullshit and trying to pat himself one the back constantly, and that requires a bit of a, shall we say, creative writing. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/304 "2009-08-01T02:22:21Z")
I don’t know what your problem is, **FinnAgain**. You’re approaching **Stoid** -like levels of paranoia in **Curlcoat** quantity, desperate to defend your position, because you know your ass is hanging out in the breeze. I will condense your output in this thread to spare the readers: 1. **SmashTheState** is like, totally a crazy person!! And I don’t like his cites even though I don’t provide my own! 2. You’re stupid! 3. Why don’t you leave, so I can go back to my circle-jerk talking about people being stupid while my friends (or lack thereof, at this point you’re more or less a lone voice in the wilderness) pat me on the back? The whole point of this thread is that people like you, boring shallow individuals, have this level of arrogance about yourselves that dwarfs comprehension, and doesn’t have any sort of basis in reality. You’ve singlehandedly demonstrated exactly the kind of twittishness that defines a hanger-upon. **SmashTheState** could post that tomorrow the sun will rise and you’d leap out foaming at the mouth and claiming that everyone knows he’s wrong. You don’t debate; you tell, and anyone who disagrees with you is a stupid crazy fuck, because you have declared it by fiat. Where did you admit you were wrong? Oh that’s right, you didn’t, you just cut and paste from wikipedia and set up a nice strawman to knock down. But the fact was, you were wrong, proven wrong, are still wrong, but you haven’t had the chutzpah to do anything but call people trolls and stupid. Why are _you_ participating in this thread? Obviously, if I’m a stupid crazy troll here only to piss you off, why do you keep arguing with me? Isn’t the rational response to just ignore me? Why do you feel the need to triumph over the forces of **SmashTheState** and his “bootlicks”, when it’s so obvious that we’re wrong? Why don’t you know any synonyms for “stupid”? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/305 "2009-08-01T02:32:08Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > 1. **SmashTheState** is like, totally a crazy person!! And I don’t like his cites even though I don’t provide my own! **FinnAgain** has certainly provided cites in this thread regarding Aspartame. Posts #172 and 173. Y’know, the posts to which you responded TLDR. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/306 "2009-08-01T02:38:10Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > **FinnAgain** has certainly provided cites in this thread regarding Aspartame. Posts #172 and 173. Y’know, the posts to which you responded TLDR. True. He did. Three pages into a flamepit thread and not in the original GQ thread. But yes, he provided cites. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/307 "2009-08-01T02:44:01Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Indeed, the last time I tried to discuss the activities of the OPU, I ended up walking away in disgust, as it turned into the sort of poor-bashing free-for-all I have since come to expect around here. This line almost made me spit my expensive scotch all over my expensive monitor. Every time I say anything that is not 100% poor-positive, the wolves come a-circlin’. It amazes me that you feel you’ve had the exact opposite experience, but I guess it’s a big SDMB out there, and I haven’t participated in many of the same threads you have (can’t stand the smell mostly, you dirty hippy). ETA: As a completely random addition, just because I wanna tell someone, I just discovered Ida Maria. Really really good stuff. I wish Stella Rocket would put out something new, but Ida Maria is assuaging my yearning for now. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/308 "2009-08-01T02:48:39Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > The whole point of this thread is that people like you, boring shallow individuals, have this level of arrogance about yourselves that dwarfs comprehension, and doesn’t have any sort of basis in reality. You’ve singlehandedly demonstrated exactly the kind of twittishness that defines a hanger-upon. **SmashTheState** could post that tomorrow the sun will rise and you’d leap out foaming at the mouth and claiming that everyone knows he’s wrong. You don’t debate; you tell, and anyone who disagrees with you is a stupid crazy fuck, because you have declared it by fiat. To be fair, Smashy wouldn’t just post that the sun would rise. He would post that the sun would be willed into the sky by the collective beliefs of those who reject the oppressive system of our tyrannical overlords and cleansed themselves of the burdens of psychology and artificial sweeteners. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/309 "2009-08-01T03:50:52Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > _“When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.”_ – **Jonathan Swift** Well, THANK you. I knew the title of that book came from somewhere familiar, but I never recalled where. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/310 "2009-08-01T11:49:26Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > This line almost made me spit my expensive scotch all over my expensive monitor. Every time I say anything that is not 100% poor-positive, the wolves come a-circlin’. It amazes me that you feel you’ve had the exact opposite experience, but I guess it’s a big SDMB out there, and I haven’t participated in many of the same threads you have (can’t stand the smell mostly, you dirty hippy). I think it’s more that you’re both kind of nutcases, but in opposite directions. You get shit for demonizing the poor, he gets it for beatifying the poor. Most folk know that the poor are real people in a shitty situation, who have the real problems and real emotions that typify our species. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/311 "2009-08-01T13:18:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think it’s more that you’re both kind of nutcases, but in opposite directions. All we need is Brundlefly’s teleporter, and out comes a rational human being. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/312 "2009-08-01T16:30:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think it’s more that you’re both kind of nutcases, but in opposite directions. You get shit for demonizing the poor, he gets it for beatifying the poor. Most folk know that the poor are real people in a shitty situation, who have the real problems and real emotions that typify our species. To continue one of my favoire themes (i.e., “I’m so misunderstood!”), I really don’t think I demonize the poor. I think liberal douches infantilize the poor. I think society should be set up in a fashion such that all people with talent and ambition have an opportunity to succeed. Giving handouts to people for their entire lives just creates a permanent welfare class. Just because I don’t want the government to give handouts to poor people (except for on a very time-limited and targeted basis) does not mean that I do not like poor people. It’s just the opposite. I like all people too much to treat any of them like children. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/313 "2009-08-01T16:46:10Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Were I cynical and middle-aged, I’d be tempted to read this as an admission of trolling. \*\*Since I’m not both cynical and middle-aged… > \*\* > > \*\*Gfactor \*\* > Pit Moderator – bolding mine. :::shakes _both_ fists at **Gfactor** ::: I _hate_ you! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/314 "2009-08-01T17:50:40Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > To continue one of my favoire themes (i.e., “I’m so misunderstood!”), I really don’t think I demonize the poor. I think liberal douches infantilize the poor. I think society should be set up in a fashion such that all people with talent and ambition have an opportunity to succeed. Giving handouts to people for their entire lives just creates a permanent welfare class. Yeah, I know you think that you think that. But your posts in response to people who’re having trouble suggests otherwise. “Demonize” is hyperbolic, but you certainly seem to have no sympathy for the fact that sometimes shitty things happen to people, and it’s basically out of their control sometimes; nor have you any understanding of the role your childhood educational opportunities played in your own success. Whatever. You’re the flip side of the **StS** coin. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/315 "2009-08-01T18:36:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yeah, I know you think that you think that. But your posts in response to people who’re having trouble suggests otherwise. You are wrong. Plain and simple, no interpretation or two ways about it. Are you referring to threads with unemployed OPs where I got on their case? As I have explained a hundred times, I never got onto their case for being unemployed. I got onto their case for something else (i.e., whining about it, saying that the economy makes finding a job hopeless, etc.). > [@](#): > > “Demonize” is hyperbolic, but you certainly seem to have no sympathy for the fact that sometimes shitty things happen to people, and it’s basically out of their control sometimes; What do you want me to do? Sit at home and cry all day about the blind parapalegic kids born in Ethiopa? I do not support government programs that simply give cash handouts to people based on the fact that they don’t make much money. This position is based on what I consider a better way to organize society, not that I don’t have sympathy for people that experience bad things. > [@](#): > > nor have you any understanding of the role your childhood educational opportunities played in your own success. I went to public schools in poorer schoold districts all the way through high school, then I went to public schools for university and law school. No matter what I said, though, you would find something that could have given me a leg up over somebody else and then accuse me of not appreciating that or understanding the role it played. None of this matters–it’s still not a good thing for the government to just redistribute wealth for its own sake. > [@](#): > > Whatever. You’re the flip side of the **StS** coin. I’m not sure what currency you think this coin is in. What’s interesting is that other posters think I am exactly like StS–I want small government and he wants no government, so to these posters he and I are basically the same. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/316 "2009-08-01T20:11:26Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What do you want me to do? Sit at home and cry all day about the blind parapalegic kids born in Ethiopa? More than cry all day, if you’re not actively pulling your hair out and smearing ashes on your face, you’re not up to snuff. No, to continue the silly image, I want you not to sneer at them and mock their parents for not finding food for them. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what currency you think this coin is in. What’s interesting is that other posters think I am exactly like StS–I want small government and he wants no government, so to these posters he and I are basically the same. Both of you are correct in thinking your politics are nothing like one another: you believe, if I understand correctly, that private property is close to a sacrament, whereas StS thinks it’s essentially a blasphemy. That’s too major a difference to gloss over. (For myself, I think it’s a somewhat useful fiction, that’s useful for achieving certain ends efficiently, but it shouldn’t be mistaken for the ends themselves). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/317 "2009-08-01T20:46:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > [Terrence McKenna on the subject of Schizophrenia and Shamanism](http://dotsub.com/view/c0ba01ba-67ca-4433-84fa-5bdd4ce52ade) > > The best and most succinct description of the difference I have ever heard. > > “The Shaman is diving, the schizophrenic is drowning.” This is cribbed from a comment made by Carl Jung to James Joyce, in response to Joyce’s suggestion that his schizophrenic daughter’s word salad was comparable to his own experiments with stream of consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/318 "2009-08-01T21:10:26Z")
By way DSY, it’s been a while and still no retraction from you, although you took the time to inaccurately lecture me on my posting style. Would you care to address any of the following? -The fact that I did indeed provide cites. Five of them. Of which I provided direct quotations for four out of five, the fifth being a document that I couldn’t cut and paste from. -That, at the very least, I was correct and Smashy provided a cite that didn’t even address his claim (as I pointed out at the time). -That the cite which was given was a position paper and not a study, which you got wrong in the process of lecturing me (and which I’d already pointed out to Smashy). -It was a reasonable conclusion that Smashy was attempting to use the position paper in support support of his claim in the sentence immediately preceding it. And, it was neither an unreasonable assumption nor a strawman, as the only other alternative is that Smashy was simply flailing about aimlessly in his pretentious belief that he knows more about medicine than a medical professional and he’s too stupid to recognize what makes something a decent cite? That he he was citing something that was long since eclipsed by actual research and only suggested more research in the first place, anyway, and using that to prove his ‘genius’ and that he was being oppressed by a confederacy of dunces? - The his claim, and the concerns of the position paper were both gainsaid by 25 years of actual research (as I pointed out at the time), which means that Smashy really was stupid for posting it in the first place for any reason other than to show a quarter of a century ago there used to be valid concern that’s long since been eliminated by actual research? -And that, either way, he either wasn’t able or wasn’t willing to provide a cite for his claims, and too stupid to realize that when Jack was trying to educate him, a long-since-answered position paper was a pretty retarded method to scoring gotchaya! points? Or how about: -That I was correct and certain wooian positions really don’t merit engaging with, as Smashy (and his bootlicks) have maintained that even though he presented no evidence for his position and all the actual evidence has falsified their claims, that he was right? That, in short, willfully ignorant, irrational, truly stupid people who want to believe something will believe it, regardless of the evidence and dismissing their stupidity achieves the exact same result as engaging it, but saves time? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/319 "2009-08-01T21:46:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, to continue the silly image, I want you not to sneer at them and mock their parents for not finding food for them. Yeesh. I’ve never said anything on here that could be interpreted by any reasonable observer as sneering at poor people or mocking them for being poor. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/320 "2009-08-01T22:25:34Z")
**FinnAgain** , thanks for taking time responding to my post… > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’re saying the same thing, only with more words. … Most ignorant people are ignorant for a reason, and quite often that reason isn’t that they simply haven’t been exposed to the information. Many of them are willfully ignorant, some areignorant because they’re also stupid and incurious. … but we will never meet in an understanding of each others view, and I beg your pardon for not continuing this discussion. All the best. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731.md?page=17)