# SmashTheState **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731 "2009-07-30T01:00:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/381 "2009-08-03T05:43:24Z")
Since someone has posted approvingly of Smashy’s list of cites, I suppose I should look a bit at them. > [@](#): > > Soul-making to Soul Retrieval: Creative Bridges Between Shamanism and Psychotherapy. Roberts, Maureen B., Ph.D., Darknight Publications, 1997. > > Divine Madness: Schizophrenia, Cultural Healing & Psychiatry’s Loss of Soul. Roberts, Maureen B., Ph.D., Darknight Publications, 2001. > > Man and His Symbols. Jung, C. G., Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1964. > > The Undiscovered Self (Present and Future), Jung, C. G., New York: American Library, 1959. > > Psychology and Religion: The Terry Lectures. Jung, C. G., New Haven: Yale University Press, 1960. > > Shamans and Acute Schizophrenia. Silverman, Julian, American Anthropologist 69(1):21-31, 1967. > > Schizophrenia: the Inward journey. Campbell, Joseph, Penguin Books, 1972. > > The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. Jaynes, Julian, Boston : Houghton Mifflin, 1976. > **[Soul in Exile: Schizophrenia, Jung & a Psychiatric Evaluation of Psychiatry](http://www.jungcircle.com/exile.html)** This is the most modern cite, many of them being from the 1960s or before: as Jung died in 1961, citing his work to after that year is… dubious. (Edit: But accurate, my bad.) > [@](#): > > For the sad truth is that psychiatry is spiritually bankrupt. No longer is its concern with the ‘cure of souls’, but rather with the scapegoating of its own sickness through the projection of its own neurotic split (conscious materialism vs an unconscious religious instinct), euphemistically disguised as ‘treatment’, onto the patient. Its chief and largely unconscious concern is thus not with healing, but with the justification of its materialistic dogma, which is achieved via clever circular reasoning. This pseudo-medical game is played out along the following lines, to draw on a familiar patient-practitioner situation: a psychotic patient who is posing no threat to others claims to be experiencing visions of angels, therefore the patient must be delusional, since there’s no such thing as angels. In other words, an experience which from an equally valid (spiritual) angle could be described as a spiritual emergency, awakening, or initiation, is conveniently labelled as delusional, or imaginary in order to justify psychiatric materialistic dogma. (Note how from the equally valid spiritual perspective, it is therefore materialistic psychiatry which is delusional). [http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message771297/pg1](http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message771297/pg1) She’s a bit of a whackaloon, reccomending ‘natural treatments’ (eg, herbal supplements), bowel cleansing, and sweat lodges as treatments for schizophrenia. > **[THE NEW MYTHOLOGY: ANGELIC, APOCALYPTIC AND ALIEN DREAMS](http://www.greatdreams.com/anglmyth.htm)** Much like our Lekatt, she seems to think dreams she has had count as evidence. Now, I’m no PhD, but she seems a bit… off to me. Anyone capable of examining this on a deeper level? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/382 "2009-08-03T05:50:31Z")
A note: The Terry Lectures are actually from '37, if published in '60. (They were first published in '38) I knew dating all the books to the late 60s looked wrong. (Undiscovered Self is '57) This changes nothing about their validity, one notes, just that they should be examined with an eye to the knowledge of the field of study at the time. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/383 "2009-08-03T06:01:35Z")
But…but…they were cites from the sixties…man! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/384 "2009-08-03T06:22:48Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Since someone has posted approvingly of Smashy’s list of cites, I suppose I should look a bit at them. I still wish that someone who’s supporting them (and claiming that Smashy didn’t distort their meaning) would provide the relevant quotes. Obviously, Smashy won’t do it any time soon. Dr. Roberts (day or night she’ll be there any time at all) is a bit of a loon if she believes that ‘seeing angels’ is just a valid spiritual hallucination and that believing that angels don’t actually exist is a ‘materialist delusion’. It’s the poorest kind of junk science, labeling reason and epistemology “materialism” and alleging a valid ‘spiritual’ dynamic which remains untested and unproven. She claims that it is “circular” reasoning to realize that angels don’t exist and therefore anybody who thinks that they’re seeing angels really isn’t. Her problem evidently isn’t so much with psychology as it is the entire scientific method itself (unless it can be manhandled to produce clinical results showing that belief in angels is wise and disbelief in angels is delusion. Its pure Lekattism. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I do think you have lashed out at **Finn** for unsubstantiated reasons. The reason was that I caught Ivy at his (her?) games and then [called him out.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11395688&postcount=147) Starting in post 139 Ivy alleged that Jack was "Nothing but hot air and pomposity. " and that Jack hadn’t provided any cites of Smashy’s bullshit in the GQ thread. However, [Jack did](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11388026&postcount=17). Evidently it really upset Ivy that someone had factually refuted Smashy’s idiocy (about aspartame and an evil conspiiiiiracy to keep stevia off the market) Ivy has since played any number of games, like (perhaps accurately) claiming not to understand what Jack was saying. For the record, Jack never claimed that methanol wasn’t a metabolite of aspartame. What he actually did was compare it with trace amounts of formaldehyde which may exist in trace quantities in some vaccines but are dwarfed by natural formaldehyde production via metabolism in the human body. > [@](#): > > Saying that aspartame “breaks down into METHANOL” is akin to the scaremongering about “formaldehyde” allegedly in vaccines (any trace amounts of this compound are dwarfed by formaldehyde normally found in the human body as a metabolic breakdown product - the same goes for methanol). Rather obviously, that was a statement that the same is true of metanol via aspartame as formadehyde via vaccines, that it was dwarfed by other sources. Jack was right, as sources like fruit juice cause a hell of a lot more methanol metabolites than soda does. Jack was objecting to the junk-science scaremongering as well as Smashy’s absurd claim that methanol in that context was ‘dangerous’. Ivy can not (or chooses not) to understand that. Is should also be noted that Jack’s rebuttal was in response to Smashy’s original false-to-facts claim, namely that “aspartame breaks down into some very unpleasant and dangerous substances (such as methanol).” As Jack pointed out at the time, in context, the dose of methanol one gets from aspartame is not at all dangerous. The cite he provided went to that effect too, as it talked about the evidence that shows that using aspartame is 100% safe. IIRC one of the triad then tried to claim that all that (including my cites) wasn’t a refutation because they didn’t address methanol, only aspertame. Of course, that too betrayed a shocking level of stupidity as the only way that the methanol in question would be dangerous would be, in context, the use of aspartame. And since that was shown to be safe, then its contextual metabolites were also shown to be safe. Not to mention that I provided a cite that the actual metabolite of methanol that can be dangerous in other contexts is actually cleared from the body fast enough not to be any problem at all when aspartame use is the cause. After I posted five cites demonstrating that neither aspartame nor the methanol produced from it are any health risk, Ivy responded “TLDR” and then claimed that I was saying that methanol isn’t a metabolite of aspartame. When he was caught bullshitting on that count, he claimed that it was really Jack. I think he lashed out at Jack because Jack showed that Smashy was a credophile schlock salesman trying to slip junk-science into GQ, and then Ivy decided to take the fight to me when I waded in. On that count, his reasons are quite substantiated: I showed he was behaving stupidly and was snarky about it. I can expect him to do his best to argue against me at that point. A much better question is why Ivy didn’t abandon his defense of the willfully ignorant schmuck who was shitting in GQ and instead started a fight with Jack for trying to clear up his ignorance. Indeed, it takes all sorts. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/385 "2009-08-03T07:53:45Z")
While I agree with everyone else who is ridiculing Smashy et al; this made me laugh…it seems to be **FinnAgain** : [here](http://xkcd.com/406/) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/386 "2009-08-03T08:36:08Z")
As Gigo noted, sometimes you have to nuke them from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure. -Nathan Fillion ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/387 "2009-08-03T09:00:38Z")
Jesus Christ. I put FinnAgain on ignore and moved on to more productive things than inflicting the pale, moist fury of chubby little nerd fists on myself only to come back and discover this thread is STILL going with page after page of “_This message is hidden because FinnAgain is on your ignore list_,” and all his little nerdlings are jumping up and down, hailing him as the Master of Greyskull. He’s gone from annoying (and wrong) to _disturbing_. His psychosexual obsession with me is clearly pathological. I half expect to wake up and see my letter slot creak slowly open, revealing a pair of beady, spider-like eyes in clown paint and the ominous whisper, “We _all_ drink aspartame down here…” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/388 "2009-08-03T09:11:05Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Jesus Christ. I put FinnAgain on ignore and moved on to more productive things than inflicting the pale, moist fury of chubby little nerd fists on myself only to come back and discover this thread is STILL going with page after page of “_This message is hidden because FinnAgain is on your ignore list_,” and all his little nerdlings are jumping up and down, hailing him as the Master of Greyskull. He’s gone from annoying (and wrong) to _disturbing_. His psychosexual obsession with me is clearly pathological. I half expect to wake up and see my letter slot creak slowly open, revealing a pair of beady, spider-like eyes in clown paint and the ominous whisper, “We _all_ drink aspartame down here…” Nah, it is Splenda for me. But you also show a lack of intelligence by not realizing that I do not agree all the time with FinnAgain. What I’m trying to say is that when you demonstrate unwillingness to learn from mistakes you only set the majority posters in the SDMB to be your enemies. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/389 "2009-08-03T09:57:53Z")
Hm. Smashy, vhy do you think that Finn is psychosexually obsessed mit you? Does he remind you of your mother? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/390 "2009-08-03T11:47:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Lefty: can you please elaborate on how you see anarchism (of any flavor) as a philosophy which actually is concerned with how political power is distributed rather than claiming that ‘magic’ will make it so once any cohesive form of governance is gone? I’m sorry. You clearly enjoy your posting style, but until you start practicing brevity, engaging with you requires more effort that I get satisfaction from it; I shouldn’t have started. Count this as a victory if you’d like, but two long posts responding to mine is too much for me to engage with. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/391 "2009-08-03T11:52:20Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Jesus Christ. I put FinnAgain on ignore and moved on to more productive things than inflicting the pale, moist fury of chubby little nerd fists on myself only to come back and discover this thread is STILL going with page after page of “_This message is hidden because FinnAgain is on your ignore list_,” and all his little nerdlings are jumping up and down, hailing him as the Master of Greyskull. He’s gone from annoying (and wrong) to _disturbing_. His psychosexual obsession with me is clearly pathological. I half expect to wake up and see my letter slot creak slowly open, revealing a pair of beady, spider-like eyes in clown paint and the ominous whisper, “We _all_ drink aspartame down here…” I think you’re a moron too. Am I obsessed with you? Better put me on ignore then. In fact, you better put everyone on ignore who disagrees with you. It would help living in that delusional world you live in in which you’re always right. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/392 "2009-08-03T12:36:13Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > I think you’re a moron too. Am I obsessed with you? Better put me on ignore then. In fact, you better put everyone on ignore who disagrees with you. It would help living in that delusional world you live in in which you’re always right. Would you _like_ to be obsessed with me? I don’t put people on ignore for disagreeing with me, even when they’re rude about it. I don’t have Jackmannii on ignore, for example, even though he disagrees with me, and is very, very wrong. I put people on ignore for being viciously stupid, relentless, and boring. All three of those conditions have to be present. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/393 "2009-08-03T13:06:59Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Jesus Christ. I put FinnAgain on ignore I’ve had a few reports about this. Here’s the deal. The Pit is the one place on the board where it’s ok to announce that someone is on your ignore list. I cite the rule and the Pit exception here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11398330&postcount=23](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11398330&postcount=23) No warning issued, obviously. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/394 "2009-08-03T13:40:00Z")
Why is it always psychosexual, seriously? Aren’t eating and fighting equally as primal urges as sex? Libido, libido, libido. Freud was way too heavy on that. There’s a lot of other developmental theories, and most of them are considerably more valid, based on study rather than philosophy without statistics. Do you have some reason for sticking with incredibly early and discredited psychological theories? Is this an outgrowth of your political philosophy, which seems to be equally archaic? ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/395 "2009-08-03T14:39:21Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Why is it always psychosexual, seriously? Aren’t eating and fighting equally as primal urges as sex? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar… but more often, it’s a big brown cock. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/396 "2009-08-03T15:20:35Z")
Oddly enough, the imagery that brings up in my head is a Primus song. Wyona’s Big Brown Beaver. Still, not the answer I was hoping for. You do follow an archaic political philosophy. I’m not saying it’s wrong, I’m saying that it’s _generally_ considered a bit old fashioned. Do you think this has any connection to your use of antiquated psychological philosophy? I know people who attempt to live as if nothing past 1930 had ever happened. More and more difficult as time goes on, but hey. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/397 "2009-08-03T16:00:42Z")
Ad at bottom of page “How To Spot A Liar”. Too funny. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/398 "2009-08-03T16:02:46Z")
It’s interesting that even after all of this, Smashy is still claiming that Jack is “very very” wrong. I wonder if you need a little bit more “dynamite” than “debate” in order to penetrate Smashy’s skull. He still doesn’t realize that he was wrong, or _why_ he was wrong. He doesn’t understand why citing a largely uncited quack-science page is not a good cite. He doesn’t understand why accusations require proof beyond ‘I am a rugged anarchist and I understand how the world really works and if you’re using logic to argue against me then you’re just a tool of The Man!!!’ And of course, I’m not just stupid I’m viciously so. I don’t think it says anything good about him if all it took was someone who was stupid to show that he was that full of shit. I dunno… I’d at least like to think that someone who thoroughly debunked my claims did so because they had a bit of intellect not because my mistakes were so glaring that even a stupid person could pick them out with ease. All well, at least Smashy has a very high opinion of himself. Obviously, he caught me. I really like crazy man-children who never grew past the teenage rebellion stage and have sub-average intellects, but who believe themselves to be oppressed geniuses. Obviously, I’m very sexually attracted to him. Come on Smashy, talk angry-retard to me. Rrrrrrrrrrrroooooow! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/399 "2009-08-03T16:12:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …Obviously, I’m very sexually attracted to him… And how do you feel about that? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731/400 "2009-08-03T16:19:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And how do you feel about that? Obviously, it makes me angry at my mother. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smashthestate/504731.md?page=21)