# Smaug survives Bilbo's quest. What does Gandalf do about it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 25, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432 "2010-01-25T22:32:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/41 "2010-01-27T18:30:54Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Sorry, I’ve just got a soft spot in my upper chest for the big guy. He was my first super-villain, if you will. Are you the guy who’s been spray painting “Smaug lives!” in subway tunnels? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/42 "2010-01-27T18:34:57Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > are you the guy who’s been spray painting “smaug lives!” in subway tunnels? > 🙂 Subway tunnels are for small-timers! I’m gonna paint TEH INTERNETS!! Smaug Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Satchmo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/satchmo/32/4223_2.png) [@Satchmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satchmo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/43 "2010-01-27T19:06:20Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Does it have an magical qualities as do the droppings of unicorns? Lets get back to this, what kind of magical qualities do the droppings of unicorns have? No mention of it in Beagle’s “Last Unicorn” that I can recall. (Granted only one of many works about unicorns.) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/44 "2010-01-27T19:15:44Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I’m not sure Tolkien ever addressed the specifics of Dragon’s digestive tracts, but presumably if Smaug’s digestive system couldn’t destroy the ring, it would work its way out eventually. > > Wouldn’t want to be the dark servant of Sauron that had to go digging through dragon poop to find it, though. I’ll bet soup spoons to Sting that Sauron does it himself. He rather deal with with actual crap than the metaphorical crap that will ensue if–no, when–an Orc or Southron gets ensnared by the One. Not that he won’t be able to get it back–just that he’ll dodge the problem in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/45 "2010-01-27T19:26:02Z")
> [@Satchmo](#): > > Lets get back to this, what kind of magical qualities do the droppings of unicorns have? They cure wounds, and fair maidens seek them for some reason. I can’t find any cites at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/46 "2010-01-27T21:08:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Fewmets. The word for dragon poop is fewmets. It’s such a great word that comes up so seldom, it’s a shame to waste an opportunity to use it. [Cecil disagrees](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/250/is-it-true-every-type-of-animal-dropping-has-its-own-name). Well, that is unless fewmets is the name for both deer _and_ dragon poop. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/47 "2010-01-27T21:21:07Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > [Cecil disagrees](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/250/is-it-true-every-type-of-animal-dropping-has-its-own-name). Well, that is unless fewmets is the name for both deer _and_ dragon poop. That column is just dripping with potential usernames! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/48 "2010-01-27T22:10:55Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ll bet soup spoons to Sting that Sauron does it himself. He rather deal with with actual crap than the metaphorical crap that will ensue if–no, when–an Orc or Southron gets ensnared by the One. Not that he won’t be able to get it back–just that he’ll dodge the problem in the first place. Nope; I think he’d have a Ringwraith do it. They are absolute slaves to his will and would just hand the Ring over. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/49 "2010-01-27T22:23:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nope; I think he’d have a Ringwraith do it. They are absolute slaves to his will and would just hand the Ring over. I know; it’s similar to what the Perfesser himself said would happen if young Mister Underhill had claimed the Ring at Orodruin. I just wanted to see who would point it out first. Does that count as trolling? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/50 "2010-01-28T00:22:59Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Does that count as trolling? No, it’s Orcing. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/51 "2010-01-28T05:16:09Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > [Cecil disagrees](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/250/is-it-true-every-type-of-animal-dropping-has-its-own-name). Well, that is unless fewmets is the name for both deer _and_ dragon poop. It fits if the deer IS dragon poop, or shortly to become so. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/52 "2010-01-28T05:38:15Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Aren’t _palantirs_ “shiny”? Wouldn’t a dragon want one in the hoard on general principle? If so, couldn’t Sauron have contrived to make sure that one would have come within the notice of Smaug? And then with Smaug having added it to the hoard, and dragons being very susceptible to flattery, wouldn’t Sauron have found it much easier to control Smaug than say, Saruman? > > Looking at it from the side of the good guys, I don’t know if Smaug would have given Gandalf a tougher time than the Balrog did. I mean if one arrow to the tits is good enough to take down a red dragon, I gotta’ think Gandalf would’ve had a much easier time. > > But it certainly makes a better tale, the way it turned out. Except that there are only four surviving Palantirs – the one Suron uses to subvert and dominate the others, the one he’s working Denethor to despair with, the one he’s using to con Saruman (whole Saruman is deluding himself into thinking he’s conning Sauron), and the one Cirdan uses to check in with Home Base back in Valinor (which everyone forgets about, and which is arguably the best protected of the four). As between conning the ruler of the last Numenorean realm, conning one of his ownly two possibe Maia opponents, trying to get the other one away from Cirdan, and using one to bribe a dragon (When he has fell beasts in reserve), I know which one I’d pick as least productive if I were playing Sauron’s role! ================= On the other hand, there’s a good reason why Smaug is the last surviving dragon. He knows what happened to Glaurung, Ancalagon, and the rest of them, when they followed the instructions of Morgoth or Sauron. And Gandalf realizes this. If he can’t have a Dwarf-kingdom at Erebor to guard the northern approaches to Mirkwood the Vales of Anduin, and Eriador, maybe he’d settle for having the last dragon as an ally of the Free Peoples? Ladies and gentlehobbits, I give you the story Tolkien didn’t write: “The Redemption of Smaug.” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/53 "2010-01-28T05:41:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait, I thought that Conan’s people were descended from the survivors of Atlantis. Which would make Conan a Dunedan. No, that was Leno Ironchin. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/54 "2010-01-28T15:55:21Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > …Ladies and gentlehobbits, I give you the story Tolkien didn’t write: “The Redemption of Smaug.” Great idea - I like the sound of that! The dialogue between Bilbo and Smaug was quite entertaining, but I’ll bet someone could write a great story of the conversations between Gandalf and Smaug. Or are dragons, like (maybe) orcs, irredeemably evil? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/55 "2010-01-28T16:00:23Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Great idea - I like the sound of that! The dialogue between Bilbo and Smaug was quite entertaining, but I’ll bet someone could write a great story of the conversations between Gandalf and Smaug. Or are dragons, like (maybe) orcs, irredeemably evil? I don’t think orcs are irredeemable. Dragons, on the other hand, were bred by Morgoth from animal stock, and may reasonably be assumed to lack fëar. The original Dark Lord would most likely have instilled the great wyrms with an evil essence that in many ways mimicked souled life forms, but which lacked free will and would not survive the death of the body. So, yeah, dragons are all evil and may be slaughtered without guilt. Very much like pandas in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/56 "2010-01-28T16:40:13Z")
“Yeah, Smaug’s a bastard. But he’s OUR bastard.” ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/57 "2010-01-28T17:13:54Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Great idea - I like the sound of that! The dialogue between Bilbo and Smaug was quite entertaining, but I’ll bet someone could write a great story of the conversations between Gandalf and Smaug. Or are dragons, like (maybe) orcs, irredeemably evil? Just as long as we don’t get a Smaug origin story about an annoying hatchling and an over-the-top-until-it-becomes-offensive comic relief character. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/58 "2010-01-28T18:05:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think orcs are irredeemable. Well, yes and no. There can’t be a redeemed Orc, but a being who is an Orc can become redeemed. That is to say, orcs are by definition evil, so one who was redeemed would cease to be an Orc, and instead be a very ugly Elf (or whatever the original breeding-stock was). Dragons being bred from animal stock, though, I don’t think rules out the possibility of them having souls. The great eagles, Beorn’s attendants, and Tom Bombadil’s horse all seem to be “naturally” intelligent, and I wouldn’t bet on any of them not having souls. That said, though, it would surely be much, much more difficult to redeem a dragon than an orc, both since they’re probably evil on a more fundamental level, and because they’re much stronger-willed and hence harder to influence in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/59 "2010-01-28T18:22:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Dragons being bred from animal stock, though, I don’t think rules out the possibility of them having souls. I ruled out the wyrms having souls because they descend from non-souled beings without the intervention of Eru. Morgoth bred them, and he could no more ensoul them than Aulë could ensoul the fathers (and presumably mothers, though the sexist Perfesser glosses over that :D) of the Dwarves. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432/60 "2010-01-28T19:33:41Z")
You can’t breed intelligent animals who talk from unintelligent animals who can’t talk. Ergo, the wyrms were once intelligent talking beings, turned into dragon shape. How’s THAT for a genetic engineering project!!! And, thus, they have souls for the same reason trolls do. 😉 My source material? My ass, of course, where else?? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smaug-survives-bilbos-quest-what-does-gandalf-do-about-it/526432.md?page=4)