# Smiths in India **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 7, 2013, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694 "2013-05-07T11:47:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/21 "2013-05-07T17:25:05Z")
By the way, “peon” is an actual job title in India. It’s a sort of general gofer. Officially, they are there to carry things around the office and deliver things to people and twice a day make everyone a hot cup of tea and bring it to their desks. For tips, office peons will do all kinds of additional, personal tasks, like reserve a train ticket, go out for lunch, take your clothes to the cleaners/tailors. There is many a day I wish that we had office peons. By the way, office peons in major cities are in high demand and are relatively well-paid compared to other kinds of unskilled workers. They might dress in shabby-looking denim uniforms and squat in a sparse room with a burner for a tea kettle, but they are relatively well-off. They often get unofficial perks as well. One of my relatives discovered that her office peons would take surplus milk (for tea) and use it to make and sell ghi as a side business, completely off-the-books and full profits for them to keep. The people who run the small streetside markets (often built in shipping containers) can often run a healthy profit, being able to send their kids to college and build nice houses. Now, obviously, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t real poverty in India, and there aren’t a lot of extremely shitty jobs, but peons and owners of kiranas (streetside convenience kiosks) can make decent livings. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/22 "2013-05-08T02:50:05Z")
Wow, so THIS thread took off in my absence. I’m feeling a mix of the familiar (the names actually DO relate to lineage and profession) and baffled amazement (I thought it was ‘just one India’) This has been a very educational thread! I’ve known a Patel, and a Punatar, and a Gupta, and had assumed the Simpsons’ nahasapeemapetilon had a basis in fact, but couldn’t find a pattern…which would make sense, as I don’t speak the language. That said, my Grandfather could go on, _at length_ over the differences between the right and true Thomson clan, and that scurrilous group that left Scotland and came back as Thompsons. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/23 "2013-05-08T02:58:01Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > Wow, so THIS thread took off in my absence. I’m feeling a mix of the familiar (the names actually DO relate to lineage and profession) Some of them do and some of them don’t. > [@](#): > > I’ve known a Patel, and a Punatar, and a Gupta, and had assumed the Simpsons’ nahasapeemapetilon had a basis in fact, but couldn’t find a pattern…which would make sense, as I don’t speak the language. The name “Apu” is a common nickname in some parts of India. It’s a diminuitive of “Apurbva.” The name “Nahasapeemapetilon” is entirely made up. It’s supposed to be a parody of very long South Indian names, but it doesn’t sound Indian to any Indian. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/24 "2013-05-08T07:26:20Z")
> [@StJoan](#): > > Most Hindu and Indian Muslim surnames are caste names (quite literally, the caste they were born in to, even if they do not practice that profession any more), I’m coming around to the view that caste = profession is a western construct that came into being from a desire to understand and categorise the caste system. Here, from an article in the American Sociological Journal[(link)](http://home.uchicago.edu/~aabbott/barbpapers/barbghur.pdf), is a rough summing up of the views of one of the authorities on caste, A.S Ghurye - > [@](#): > > “… Thus was diffusionism coupled with a new view that caste endogamy was ideologically important but practically difficult. Intermarriage was perpetually creating new groups, which then had to be rationalized and systematized by Brahmanic intellectuals, even while the exigencies of material life—occupation, landowning, trades—steadily pressed against any limited or fixed notion of an occupational rationalization, even for Brahmanical writers. Ghurye’s view of caste was thus inevitably dynamic and rejected the deep, almost primeval stability sought by—indeed assumed by—many of the racial and occupational theories” > [@pulykamell](#): > > The surnames I find most often are: Shah, Patel, Parikh, and Mehta. (And it’s not just because I’m dealing within the same families–many of these come from various referral bases.) I don’t think I know any Gujjus with different last names! Ahh, no, just thought of one. It was a bit tough though. > [@Dervorin](#): > > In Punjab and Gujarat, respectively, that is true. Anywhere else in India, that’s not really the case. In the south of India, particularly (where, incidentally, the first name / surname structure only really exists in affluent urban populations), you’re not going to find a preponderance of Patels or Singhs. India is just too large and varied a country to generalise like this. Actually, and you probably know this, Singh is usually not a last name in Punjab. It’s just a title that all adult male Sikhs have. Their full name would be something along the lines of Gurpreet Singh Bakshi or something. Singh does happen to be a common last name in Bihar, but that’s unrelated. > [@Acsenray](#): > > 1. Many of these subgroups traditionally _do not use family names_ and many of them have only recently adopted the practice. Thus, Parsees might have names like “Shipchandler” and “Pilot” and “Sodawaterbottleopenerwalla” (not a joke). Would you happen to have a cite for Sodawaterbottleopenerwalla? I’m a tad skeptical. It’ll be fun if you’re right though. > [@AK84](#): > > “Walla” in various S Asian languages means “the guy/the guy with” (female form\* walli\*). So Sodabottleopenerwallah literally means “The guy with the soda bpttle opener”. I _think_ ‘of’ may be a better translation. i.e Homi Tirewallah may be better translated as Homi of the tires. There’s a belonging implied, but I’ll be damned if I can put my finger on it in my current sleep deprived state. > [@Dervorin](#): > > Yup, exactly. I work with a Limbuvala, literally “lemon-man”, or seller of lemons. I presume you mean nimbu? Or is this an alternate spelling in Tam or something that I don’t recognise? > [@Acsenray](#): > > The name “Apu” is a common nickname in some parts of India. It’s a diminuitive of “Apurbva.” > > The name “Nahasapeemapetilon” is entirely made up. It’s supposed to be a parody of very long South Indian names, but it doesn’t sound Indian to any Indian. I thought Apu was Sri Lankan? ---
**Author:** ![Indian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@Indian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indian)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/25 "2013-05-08T08:21:49Z")
[Master list](http://parsiiranisurnames.tripod.com/index.html) complied by a Parsi. Sodawaterwala, Sodabottlewaterwala, Sodawaterbottleopenerwala are the names that [exist.](http://parsiiranisurnames.tripod.com/id19.html) ---
**Author:** ![StJoan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@StJoan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StJoan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/26 "2013-05-08T08:27:16Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Holy crap. So, if I understand the suffix “walla” correctly (or at least as I tweaked it in my little time in India), does this mean that the surname is for someone whose job (ETA: or, rather, coming from an ancestor whose job) would have been to open soda water bottles? No. Most likely, he manufactured them, or sold them. If he was bartender, or had anything to do with the procurement and sale of alcohol, he would have been named “Daruwala” (Daru= liquor). And the pronunciation is (for the want of a phonetic scripts) “Daaroo-wal-la”. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/27 "2013-05-08T08:35:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > By the way, “peon” is an actual job title in India. It’s a sort of general gofer. Officially, they are there to carry things around the office and deliver things to people and twice a day make everyone a hot cup of tea and bring it to their desks. > > For tips, office peons will do all kinds of additional, personal tasks, like reserve a train ticket, go out for lunch, take your clothes to the cleaners/tailors. There is many a day I wish that we had office peons. I don’t know how we would manage without the office peon. Although in the past few years in Pakistan its become a bit un-PC to actually call them that. We are supposed to call them “Assistants” “support staff” etc. I actually got ticked off by a judge a few weeks ago when I asked a witness whether his job was that of a peon (it was). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/28 "2013-05-08T08:47:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > By the way, “peon” is an actual job title in India. And in many other countries, we had the hardest time convincing the Americans that yes, half the workers in Spanish factories are either _peones_ or _peones especializados_; similar names are used in France or Italy. They thought the name was demeaning, but it’s what the law actually calls those positions. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/29 "2013-05-08T10:40:07Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I thought Apu was Sri Lankan? No, he’s definitely Indian. And he was meant to be Bengali. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/30 "2013-05-08T13:02:43Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I don’t know how we would manage without the office peon. Although in the past few years in Pakistan its become a bit un-PC to actually call them that. We are supposed to call them “Assistants” “support staff” etc. I actually got ticked off by a judge a few weeks ago when I asked a witness whether his job was that of a peon (it was). Just to make it clear for those who might not have cross-cultural awareness of vernacular: American: “The judge ticked me off” == “The judge made me angry.” (ticked off == pissed off) South Asian: “The judge ticked me off” == “The judge scolded me.” ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/31 "2013-05-08T13:32:18Z")
> [@Dervorin](#): > > In Punjab and Gujarat, respectively, that is true. Anywhere else in India, that’s not really the case. In the south of India, particularly (where, incidentally, the first name / surname structure only really exists in affluent urban populations), you’re not going to find a preponderance of Patels or Singhs. India is just too large and varied a country to generalise like this. correct. Although singh is common for hindu rajputs and jaats and even in people from north-east India(I think its common in Manipur) as well. the word “singh” means lion in sanskrit and hindi. The most common, caste neutral surname, which is used across length and breadth of the country is Kumar. ---
**Author:** ![Dervorin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Dervorin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dervorin)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/32 "2013-05-08T14:00:33Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Actually, and you probably know this, Singh is usually not a last name in Punjab. It’s just a title that all adult male Sikhs have. Their full name would be something along the lines of Gurpreet Singh Bakshi or something. Singh does happen to be a common last name in Bihar, but that’s unrelated. > > I presume you mean nimbu? Or is this an alternate spelling in Tam or something that I don’t recognise? To the first point: true, and I did know that. I could have stated it better, perhaps, by saying that all people who have “Singh” in their name are likely to come from Punjab, but I must admit I didn’t know about the Bihari Singhs. Useful knowledge. My colleague’s name is definitely “Limbuvala” (I just checked the corporate directory), and as far as I’m aware, it’s a reasonably common variant of “nimbu” in all contexts, including cookery: [http://www.tarladalal.com/glossary-lemon-428i](http://www.tarladalal.com/glossary-lemon-428i) That bastion of cross-cultural understanding, Wikipedia, also notes that > [@](#): > > Variations on this form of lemonade can be found in many countries. In India and Pakistan, where it is commonly known as limbu paani or nimbu paani, lemonade may also contain salt and/or ginger juice. Perhaps it’s more common in Maharashtra or towards the south? In Karnataka, where I’m from, lemons are “limbehannu”, which is perhaps why “limbu” sounds normal to me. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/33 "2013-05-08T15:38:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Just to make it clear …" I believe Acsenray may have missed the obvious : that his last name (guess it is Ray or Sen-Ray) may come close to the Smiths. Ray (or variants like Rai or Rao or Roy or Raj or Rana or Rawat) - in my observation (I am Indian and from Bengal) is a last name you may observe in Bengal, Punjab, Bihar, UP, Madhya Pradesh, Haryana, Rajasthan, Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra and several other states. I am an amateur etymologist and think that the name has roots in Indo-European languages and shares roots with : Reich (German), Regina (Latin), Regain (Irish), Reign (English) … It basically means king or ruler ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/34 "2013-05-08T15:59:11Z")
I knew one guy from India surnamed _Engineer_. Are there other English occupation names used as surnames in India? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/35 "2013-05-08T16:16:01Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Ray (or variants like Rai or Rao or Roy or Raj or Rana or Rawat) - in my observation (I am Indian and from Bengal) is a last name you may observe in Bengal, Punjab, Bihar, UP, Madhya Pradesh, Haryana, Rajasthan, Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra and several other states. > > I am an amateur etymologist and think that the name has roots in Indo-European languages and shares roots with : Reich (German), Regina (Latin), Regain (Irish), Reign (English) … It basically means king or ruler My understanding is that not all of these names are necessarily from the same source. Indeed, I have heard that Bengali “Ray” or “Roy” comes _directly_ as a borrowing from French _roi_, not merely a cognate as those other examples are. But I can’t say I know for sure. > [@Monty](#): > > I knew one guy from India surnamed _Engineer_. Are there other English occupation names used as surnames in India? Well, I did mention the names Pilot, Shipchandler, and the tantalizingly unconfirmed Sodawaterbottleopenerwallah. It’s considered stereotypical of Parsees, in particular, to have English occupational terms as family names. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/36 "2013-05-08T16:17:46Z")
I also had a software developer coworker with the last name “Engineer”. He said his grandfather had chosen the name since his grandfather was a mechanical engineer, and his ethnic group never had last names until recently. Ismail Merchant from the Merchant Ivory movies is another example of an Indian guy with an English last name. As for the Indian version of Smith, what last names literally mean “smith”? Obviously there are going to be a bunch. In Europe those would be “Smith”, “Schmitt”, “Smit” and so on for Germanic languages and “Ferrer”, “Herrero”, “Ferrari”, “Fevre”, “Lefevre” and so on for Romance languages. Another question, if someone has the last name “Singh”, are they pretty much guaranteed to be Sikhs? Or are there non-Sikhs with that name? ---
**Author:** ![Flywheel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Flywheel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flywheel)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/37 "2013-05-08T16:18:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The name “Nahasapeemapetilon” is entirely made up. It’s supposed to be a parody of very long South Indian names, but it doesn’t sound Indian to any Indian. It’s based on the full name of one of the writers’ classmates: Pahasadee Napetilon. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/38 "2013-05-08T16:25:44Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I also had a software developer coworker with the last name “Engineer”. He said his grandfather had chosen the name since his grandfather was a mechanical engineer, and his ethnic group never had last names until recently. Ismail Merchant from the Merchant Ivory movies is another example of an Indian guy with an English last name. Ismail Merchant wasn’t his birth name. He was a Gujarati Muslim born Ismail Rehman. I believe that “Merchant,” like the other names, are typical of Parsees and Parsees have a particular connection with Gujarati culture (the Gujarati language has replaced Avestan as their domestic vernacular, for example). > [@](#): > > As for the Indian version of Smith, what last names literally mean “smith”? If I had to guess, it would be names featuring the word _Loha_. > [@](#): > > Another question, if someone has the last name “Singh”, are they pretty much guaranteed to be Sikhs? Or are there non-Sikhs with that name? As has been noted, there are non-Sikhs throughout northern India that use the family name “Singh.” Also “Sinha.” So, it’s not guaranteed. However, it’s a very good bet that any Panjabi named Singh is Sikh. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/39 "2013-05-08T16:31:19Z")
> [@Flywheel](#): > > It’s based on the full name of one of the writers’ classmates: Pahasadee Napetilon. Well, searching for the name “Napetilon” turns up only references to the Simpsons and Jeff Martin’s classmate. So, is it a true story? Was there someone with this name? Does anyone else have this name? Even if it’s a real name, it doesn’t sound Indian to me. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694/40 "2013-05-08T17:03:24Z")
Jeff Martin probably didn’t know how to spell the name. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smiths-in-india/657694.md?page=3)