# Smoking Ban in US Military - workable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2009, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204 "2009-07-16T09:44:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/41 "2009-07-17T12:22:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, you don’t. Tobacco impacts physical performance; passing a test just means that you passed the test, not that you were as good as you could have been without smoking. I’m sure if he ate potato chips every night he would be somewhere less than his peak condition. Ban junk food in the military? ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/42 "2009-07-17T13:40:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Then again, not everyone in the military is a grunt racing across the street under heavy sniper fire and a dense mortar rain. I doubt a sonar guy on a submarine, or a desk jockey in the Pentagon has much need for superior physical fitness. Disclaimer: I am only speaking of the Navy during my active and drilling reserve days in the 1980s-90s. I can offer no cite but I expect that the services have studied and come up with minimum standards of physical fitness that a generic servicemember is expected to meet. The PT test standards are adjusted for age but **not** position and **not** at boot camp/initial entry (Office Candidate School in my case). There were different PT standards for women (which could be another topic altogether). In my OCS class, there were personnel ranging from age 22 to 34 but all males had to do the 1.5 mile run in under 12 minutes (I forget the # of sit-ups and pushups). After that, the older one was, the more time one was allowed. > [@jtgain](#): > > I’m sure if he ate potato chips every night he would be somewhere less than his peak condition. Ban junk food in the military? Hey! I like potato chips! I probably ate fewer potato chips bacause I smoked. Would I have been in better physical condition if I didn’t/hadn’t smoked? Probably. Would I have weighted more and not fit through a hatch or been slower? Maybe, who knows. In my experience, neither I nor anybody I was aware of who had passed the physical fitness test was unable to perform the duties/tasks assigned. P.S. and the “Hey Babe, my ship sails at dawn” line never worked for me ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/43 "2009-07-17T13:57:04Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Hasn’t the idea that cutting smoking cuts healthcare costs basically been debunked? Because anything that makes you live longer makes you cost more in the end? Hwell no. It just makes the expensive health care sooner. Cancer is a very expensive final act. Most of the smoking related deaths are expensive and ugly. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/44 "2009-07-17T14:31:26Z")
They should enforce mandatory smoking in all non-combat areas, and totally ban smoking in combat situations. Then, when the enemy is encountered, the soldiers will be so pissed off, they will _take them apart_ with brutal abandon. Maybe just to loot their corpses for smokes. 😃 - Ex-smoker ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/45 "2009-07-17T20:31:35Z")
I’d support a ban, for the reasons stated by its proponents above, but it’d have to be phased in over, say, five years, and smoking-cessation services ought to be provided. A related Cecil column: [Did cigarettes distributed to WWII GIs kill more men than died in battle? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/993/did-cigarettes-distributed-to-wwii-gis-kill-more-men-than-died-in-battle) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/46 "2009-07-17T21:12:36Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’d support a ban, for the reasons stated by its proponents above, but it’d have to be phased in over, say, five years, and smoking-cessation services ought to be provided. > > A related Cecil column: [Did cigarettes distributed to WWII GIs kill more men than died in battle? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/993/did-cigarettes-distributed-to-wwii-gis-kill-more-men-than-died-in-battle) I read the column, and while I’m fully on board with the risks of smoking, the comparison of battle deaths to deaths _at any age_ from smoking strikes me as a trifle misleading. The better comparison would surely be to take it to the next step and estimate the amount of human lifespan lost to smoking vs. the war. For example, it strikes me as a trifle misleading to “count” a guy who died in battle at age 18 whose average lifespan would have been 72 and a guy whose average lifespan is 72 dying at age 68 from cancer as equivalent. Moreover, many more were wounded in WW2 than killed, and many of the wounded had their lifespans considerably shortened thereby. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/47 "2009-07-18T00:25:20Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > Disclaimer: I am only speaking of the Navy during my active and drilling reserve days in the 1980s-90s. > I can offer no cite but I expect that the services have studied and come up with minimum standards of physical fitness that a generic servicemember is expected to meet. > > The PT test standards are adjusted for age but **not** position and **not** at boot camp/initial entry (Office Candidate School in my case). There were different PT standards for women (which could be another topic altogether). > In my OCS class, there were personnel ranging from age 22 to 34 but all males had to do the 1.5 mile run in under 12 minutes (I forget the # of sit-ups and pushups). After that, the older one was, the more time one was allowed. Yes, I know, or rather I assumed as much. But **Der Trihs** was saying that had you not smoked, your physical condition would have been even better than the one that allowed you to pass those aptitude tests. Which, I suppose, is true - but it doesn’t necessarily matter, because not all military jobs are actually physical in nature. As Neil Stephenson said, the Army is a machine to deliver huge amounts of miscellaneous crap over long distances first, a paper generator second, and a fighting organisation a distant third 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/48 "2009-07-18T01:20:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Proposal’s been abandoned, hasn’t it? Reality is my cite. It took a while to fully integrate the US Military too, doesn’t mean it was a bad idea or that it cut back on recruiting. ---
**Author:** ![AmunRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AmunRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmunRa)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/49 "2009-07-19T01:55:56Z")
No cite, but I would guess that smoking in the army is higher than 30%; more like 40-50%. The army already provides free (voluntary) smoking cessation programs, but they are not widely used. Those that do use them report mediocre success. Success is usually measured in length of time before restarting, rather than quitting or not quitting. I just don’t see a viable way to ban tobacco use in the army, but it would have to be phased in. Far too many career soldiers smoke a pack or more a day and simply won’t be quitting just because the army orders them to. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/50 "2009-07-19T03:26:12Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > I was in the Royal (British) Navy. You were allowed to drink in the mess. > > 3 cans of beer a day for Junior Ratings. > Unlimited beer and 3 measures of Rum for Senior Ratings. > Unlimited everything for officers. > > I never knew the limits to be enforced and many would drink 3 (UK) pints of beer at lunch and another 8 in the evening. > > When we loaded supplies on board a large percentage was barrels and crates of beer. > > The US Navy is famously dry and American sailors who came on board got absolutely shitfaced because: > > a) they weren’t used to it and > b) they weren’t allowed to leave the mess if they had unfinished beer and > c) everyone else would make sure that they always had unfinished beers a-waiting. > > So, it’s unthinkable that the Royal Navy would ban beer - they’d ban smoking long before beer - but still, beer is banned on US ships and people still join the US Navy. > > Amazing! Thanks for the heads up on the difference between the Royal Navy and the USN. Sounds like my booze loving (idiot) cousin was in the wrong navy!!! I dont recall the specifics, but he told me he was caught with alcohol (I dont remember the details or if he was on board or on shore when he was busted for drinking) but he actually got thrown in the brig over it. The best part was when he told me that he knew he could successfully sue the United States Navy for millions because they were so mean to him (how dare they enforce the rules!!!) but he didnt want to bother. After telling me this he hit me up for a 20 dollar loan… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/51 "2009-07-19T22:53:51Z")
I remember in Nevil Shute’s _On the Beach_, a U.S. sub has made its way to Australia after a nuclear war has devastated the rest of the world. The captain still doesn’t permit alcohol aboard the sub, even though it’s the only ship left, as far as they know, in the entire U.S. Navy. The officers slip over to a Royal Australian Navy ship moored nearby when they need to quaff something stronger than lemonade. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/52 "2009-07-19T22:55:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It took a while to fully integrate the US Military too, doesn’t mean it was a bad idea or that it cut back on recruiting. Yes, but the proposal would be the opposite of integration. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/53 "2009-07-20T01:15:53Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > \ > The US Navy is famously dry and \ US Navy alcohol exception: isn’t always absolutely dry, there’s [Beer Day](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_day). The Wikipedia page states that after 45 days at sea, each member of the ship’s crew is authorized 2 cans of beer, which is how I remember it. I don’t recall Beer Day being that big a deal, what was more important to us was that it marked approximately the halfway point of our going around in circles in the Indian Ocean, watching Iran & Iraq fight [1984, aboard the USS Enterprise (CVN-65)]. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/54 "2009-07-20T01:40:46Z")
The military, at least in the enlisted ranks, is a blue collar culture like construction work. Try banning cigarettes at construction sites and see how productive the workers are. Everyone in that kind of environment smokes - it’s just the way it is, and those who don’t like it just need to deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Skylark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Skylark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skylark)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/55 "2009-07-20T01:53:46Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Is smoking allowed on US Navy ships? Presumably not submarines, but what about an aircraft carrier? Are there really 2,500 people who are all non-smokers for the duration of a voyage? In designated areas. You can even smoke on submarines, in certain heavily ventilated spots. With surface ships you basically go out to the weather deck (a catwalk-like thing that circles around parts of the ship) and have a smoke. > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Another reason to have only nonsmokers in the military is that smokers generally have severe withdrawal symptoms if they can’t have their nicotine. A smoker who can’t get his fix in a combat situation is not a good soldier, and might be outright dangerous to any of his fellows. When I was in Iraq, getting more smokes was never really a problem. And I rolled by the carton. And dipping? Fuhgeddabowdit. People loved Grizzly because you could dip anywhere you couldn’t smoke. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, you don’t. Tobacco impacts physical performance; passing a test just means that you passed the test, not that you were as good as you could have been without smoking. Got to agree with **dba Fred** here. I used to do my PT test inbetween cigarettes, and would finish a smoke as I began the run portion. I might not have been as good as I could have been without smoking, but I was damn sure one of the best ones out there. Navy set a bar, I met the bar and then some. And after the test was done I went back to sit down at my desk for the rest of the day. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/56 "2009-07-20T14:27:05Z")
> [@Skylark](#): > > \ Got to agree with **dba Fred** here. \ I appreciate and welcome your support. 🙂 My issue with **Der Trihs** was his 1st statement: > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > \ And the fact that tobacco will make them inferior soldiers IS the military’s concern. I was (and do) dispute that tobacco use makes for inferior soldiers/sailors. The military, through years of testing and experience, has determined what level of physical fitness a soldier/sailor requires and they recruit, test and train for that level. Most non-smokers and smokers pass the PT test, some non-smokers and smokers don’t pass the PT test. My (outdated) experience was that the Body Mass Index (BMI) test snagged more personnel than the PT test. I didn’t dispute the beginning of \*\*Der Trihs’ \*\*2nd statement (underlined): > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, you don’t. Tobacco impacts physical performance; passing a test just means that you passed the test, not that you were as good as you could have been without smoking. but don’t believe his conclusion “_not as good as you could have been without smoking_” necessarily follows - perhaps I would have been 30 pounds heavier had I not smoked and more liable to suffer injuries due to that. But the military does not require personnel who can run the mile in 4 minutes or bench-press 300 pounds; if they did, they would recruit for and train for that. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/57 "2009-07-20T14:44:38Z")
> [@AmunRa](#): > > No cite, but I would guess that smoking in the army is higher than 30%; more like 40-50%. The army already provides free (voluntary) smoking cessation programs, but they are not widely used. Those that do use them report mediocre success. Success is usually measured in length of time before restarting, rather than quitting or not quitting. > > I just don’t see a viable way to ban tobacco use in the army, but it would have to be phased in. Far too many career soldiers smoke a pack or more a day and simply won’t be quitting just because the army orders them to. You mean they’ll accept orders to bomb a site to smithereens without question, but they’ll kick up a fuss about being ordered not to smoke? ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/58 "2009-07-20T15:04:43Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You mean they’ll accept orders to bomb a site to smithereens without question, but they’ll kick up a fuss about being ordered not to smoke? Well, yeah. I mean bombing is fun but I never found it habit-forming/physically/psychologically addicting. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/59 "2009-07-20T15:27:46Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > Well, yeah. I mean bombing is fun but I never found it habit-forming/physically/psychologically addicting. I finally understand the line “I love the smell of napalm in the morning!” :eek: ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204/60 "2009-07-20T16:52:05Z")
Smoking is huge in the Army. Which is interesting, because it’s banned in basic training, along with the fact that you would have supervised visits to the Px, where a drill instructor would inspect your bag of purchases to ensure that you didn’t try to buy any contraband (which at that stage of the game was almost everything not hygiene-related or materials to write letters with). We still found ways to smoke though. In fact, we smoked in the drill sergeant’s office at night when he was gone! I’m generally not supportive of bans like this. It’s just hard to ask a guy that’s putting his very life on the line to not be able to light up when he has a safe opportunity to do so. If anything, they should ban smoking on military bases during peacetime but allow it in combat zones (again, when safe…no lighting up at night while on patrol, that sort of thing). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smoking-ban-in-us-military-workable/503204.md?page=4)