# Sneering progressives are driving young white men into the arms of the GOP **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 4, 2018, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566 "2018-05-04T09:14:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/462 "2018-05-10T01:52:00Z")
> [@LAZombie](#): > > A corollary to Godwin’s law should be LAZombie’s law which states that any Internet discussion that isn’t about Black oppression will eventually evolve into a discussion of Black oppression if the primary participants are liberals. Actually, what led to the sustained discussion of racial oppression was **Ashtura** ’s repeated harping on the alleged unfairness of complaints about racial oppression, starting about post #245 or so. Before **Ashtura** , who AFAICT is definitely not a liberal, started repeatedly piping up about “problems” with “that demographic”, a group of posters consisting primarily of liberals had continued the discussion of the OP’s proposed topic for about six pages. So the problem with your proposed “ **LAZombie** ’s law”, as with so many criticisms of liberals by conservatives, is that it’s a transparent attempt to put the blame on liberals for things that are actually being instigated and fostered by conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/463 "2018-05-10T02:10:49Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > …I’d wager that a majority of the liberals right here that disagree with you are, in fact, straight white men. Hey, I don’t put somebody down if they’re behind what they’re in to! I mean, far out, freak freely! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/464 "2018-05-10T02:16:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Before **Ashtura** , who AFAICT is definitely not a liberal, started repeatedly piping up about “problems” with “that demographic”, a group of posters consisting primarily of liberals had continued the discussion of the OP’s proposed topic for about six pages. AFAICT, Ashtura was just complaining about the word “privilege”. Maybe you’re thinking of Shodan or something. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/465 "2018-05-10T03:44:38Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Damn, you might want to have some words with your past self then, and don’t forget to cup the balls. To be fair, that was after a LONG disagreement about what it meant. I am happy after this discussion, that some people think it might not be the best thing to call it and I still do not think there is a totally agreed upon definition of white privilege even amongst liberals. But, if you’re going to simply define “white privilege” as “black people experience certain problems more than whites”, which I have NOT disputed, not even once, I will say that what _ **YOU call “white privilege”** _ exists. I may have difference of opinion in the root causes of these problems, but’s that’s it. I still _hotly_ dispute that the absence of discrimination is privilege, STILL find the labeling unnecessarily racial and divisive, and would never, ever call it that. But, unfortunately, as was pointed out, I can’t be the word police. > [@](#): > > Actually, what led to the sustained discussion of racial oppression was Ashtura’s repeated harping on the alleged unfairness of complaints about racial oppression, starting about post #245 or so. > > Before Ashtura, who AFAICT is definitely not a liberal, started repeatedly piping up about “problems” with “that demographic”, a group of posters consisting primarily of liberals had continued the discussion of the OP’s proposed topic for about six pages. Yeah, everything was going swimmingly until post _two hundred and fourty five_.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Sorry guys. :smack: And, just to reiterate I don’t think there’s anything unfair about complaining about racial oppression. Or writing laws and creating programs that specifically benefit black people. I’ve said that multiple times. As CarnalK pointed out, I mainly take issue with some of the new terminology being used, more specifically, “white privilege”. When you take the _baseline default_ of the way a human should be treated, and throw a racially loaded label on it, it’s going to put some off in a way that, IMO, was 100% unnecessary. And, yes, it might be causing some white people on the fence to gravitate more towards conservative circles, and influencing election results. And for the record, no I’m not a “liberal”. I am libertarian small-government atheist, socially ALL over the place (farther left on certain issues than many liberals I know), fiscal conservative, registered independent, _who does not like Trump_. I could be persuaded to vote for good D candidates, and have before. But I think they’ve been on the wrong track for the last few years, and I think Trump’s election is strong evidence of that. But again, sorry I didn’t know we had cut this down to a discussion between true Scotsman liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/466 "2018-05-10T05:02:54Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I still _hotly_ dispute that the absence of discrimination is privilege, STILL find the labeling unnecessarily racial and divisive, and would never, ever call it that. But, unfortunately, as was pointed out, I can’t be the word police. The “white privilege” phrase came about because conservatives threw a shitfit when we called it discrimination, or when we called it racism, or when we called it bigotry, or when we called it…you know, I’m starting to think it’s not really the language conservatives are objecting to, so much as it is the fact that we talk about it at all. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/467 "2018-05-10T05:19:04Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well, as a “progressive”, I’d disagree with the idea that ‘we’ are, but I have to recognize that there are assholes on the left who demonize the idea of compromise and people not agreeing with them 100%. I just don’t think there are anywhere near as many as there on the right, and that’s not a political belief on my part, it is from listening to people on the right like the Tea Party who won’t even support good ideas if they came from “THE ENEMY”. I don’t dispute that. Intransigent, “woke” progressives are much smaller in number than uncompromising Tea Party right wingers. But the former group has much more sway in the media, particularly the entertainment media, which can make it appear that they represent a significantly larger cohort than they actually do. That’s why I am calling for the more reasonable “silent majority” on the center-left to more visibly stand up to them, even knowing they risk reaping the whirlwind. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/468 "2018-05-10T06:18:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Intransigent, “woke” progressives are much smaller in number than uncompromising Tea Party right wingers. But the former group has much more sway in the media, particularly the entertainment media Cite? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/469 "2018-05-10T06:25:02Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Cite? The many cites in the Bill Maher rant are plenty backup for the first part of the claim. If you have evidence of Tea Party influence over entertainment media, please share. (I can’t help but snicker at the very notion, but hey: surprise me.) ETA: Or did you mean for the numerical comparison? I think the lack of any comparable group on the left to the Freedom Caucus illustrates that fact pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/470 "2018-05-10T06:55:43Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > The many cites in the Bill Maher rant are plenty backup for the first part of the claim. What cites, specifically, show that “the former group has much more sway in the media, particularly the entertainment media”? > [@](#): > > If you have evidence of Tea Party influence over entertainment media, please share. (I can’t help but snicker at the very notion, but hey: surprise me.) You think a movement that grew symbiotically with Fox News and enormous syndicated talk show hosts like Rush Limbaugh doesn’t have any influence over media? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/471 "2018-05-10T07:04:10Z")
ENTERTAINMENT media. As for your demand for more cites, I long ago cottoned to the fact that your method is a kind of reverse Gish Gallup, demanding cite after cite for obvious or already proven assertions. I’m not playing. If anyone is not convinced that entertainment media uses far more of the verbiage of woke-style progressivism than its audience would expect or demand, feel free to be unconvinced. Any further cites I might offer would only be met with “no true Scotsman” dismissal or would simply be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/472 "2018-05-10T07:10:34Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ENTERTAINMENT media. Is “entertainment media” the exact phrase you used in your first post? Or are certain goalposts being moved? Tell you what, let’s pretend you were talking about ENTERTAINMENT media from the beginning: cite that. > [@](#): > > As for your demand for more cites Not more cites, any cites. Or did you provide a cite when I wasn’t looking? > [@](#): > > Any further cites I might offer I think that in order to provide further cites, you first have to provide an initial cite, which you haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/473 "2018-05-10T08:12:13Z")
Not taking the bait. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/474 "2018-05-10T08:31:04Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Not taking the bait. The appropriate way to handle this would be: Option 1– if you have a cite, provide it. Option 2–If you don’t have a cite, say “I don’t have a cite, it was just an opinion.” You have chosen instead to pretend that you have a cite (which you clearly don’t), but that you’re not going to provide it because you’ve already provided too many cites (zero spparently being too many). What an awkward position you’ve contorted yourself into. You should have gone with option 2 right at the outset, but you’d look silly if you said that now. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/475 "2018-05-10T08:48:36Z")
Already provided a number of cites, in the form of the Maher video and the cites within it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/476 "2018-05-10T11:25:47Z")
Point of order: Limbaugh, FoxNews commentators (including Hannity, Fox & Friends and the late unlamented O’Reilly), Alex Jones and fellow travellers **are** “entertainment media” by their own definitions. See how, whenever they get called out for spreading falsehoods, they fall back on the “we’re just entertainers” excuse. The official “news” part of FoxNews is actually relatively small, particularly if measured by ratings. > [@Chimera](#): > > Who is telling them this stuff? > > Their own side. This is mostly white guys searching the internet for anything they can find that may be read as denigrating white guys and then putting it out for wider distribution on the Honky Nazi Network as “See? This is how the whole world is against us!”. See also: The War On Christmas/Christianity ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/477 "2018-05-10T12:12:12Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Point of order: Limbaugh, FoxNews commentators (including Hannity, Fox & Friends and the late unlamented O’Reilly), Alex Jones and fellow travellers **are** “entertainment media” by their own definitions. See how, whenever they get called out for spreading falsehoods, they fall back on the “we’re just entertainers” excuse. The official “news” part of FoxNews is actually relatively small, particularly if measured by ratings. > > See also: The War On Christmas/Christianity This is getting into the moving goalposts territory. I thought it was clear that I was talking about journalists and critics whose beat is movies and non-news TV, but not tabloids/paparazzi. They review TV shows and movies, and/or they report on upcoming projects and changes of management at TV networks, streaming services, and movie studios. This is a huge part of my media consumption. And these people are “woke” as fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/478 "2018-05-10T12:34:22Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And these people are “woke” as fuck. If you prefer the news media to stay asleep… well, you’ve got company: > [@](#): > > The Fake News is working overtime. Just reported that, despite the tremendous success we are having with the economy & all things else, 91% of the Network News about me is negative (Fake). Why do we work so hard in working with the media when it is corrupt? Take away credentials? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/479 "2018-05-10T12:39:14Z")
Lemme guess…just reported by Fox News. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/480 "2018-05-10T12:59:31Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > When you take the _baseline default_ of the way a human should be treated, and throw a racially loaded label on it, it’s going to put some off in a way that, IMO, was 100% unnecessary. The thing is that there is no “baseline default of the way a human should be treated” that exists outside of historical context. Just because all well-meaning people try to be as egalitarian as possible in our dealings with others doesn’t mean that it’s wrong to remain aware of the profound **in** equalities that persist in our society. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566/481 "2018-05-10T13:16:31Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I still _hotly_ dispute that the absence of discrimination is privilege, STILL find the labeling unnecessarily racial and divisive, and would never, ever call it that. But, unfortunately, as was pointed out, I can’t be the word police. And that’s a very white perspective. Imagine you’re a person of color, and you walk into situation X where you feel a sort of tensity about your presence. You are used to this, because for you, this is the default way people are treated. This feels normal. Your white friend Jim walks in a few minutes later and you see everyone visibly relax. Everyone treats Jim a little differently, a little bit better than they treat you. “Boy Jim,” you say to your friend later, “It sure must be nice to be white.” “Akthually,” Jim says, “This is just the default way people should be treated. It just sucks to be not white. There’s a difference.” By insisting that we remove whiteness from the manner in which we describe the phenomenon that you now admit exists, you’re asking people of color to recalibrate their social experiences to _your_ level, rather than the other way around. You’re saying, “No, my experience is the default, and your experience is just worse than mine,” rather than “Your experience is the default, and mine is slightly better.” So on the one hand, yes, it’s just a bit of semantics, but looked at another way, you’re forcing your white perspective on the situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sneering-progressives-are-driving-young-white-men-into-the-arms-of-the-gop/813566.md?page=25)