I’m going to stop you right there, because this is the point where your experience with coffee shops diverges from what those two men experienced at that particular Starbucks.
They were never asked to leave.
An employee asked if they wanted to order something. They said no, they were waiting for their friend. So the employee went and called the cops.
That’s it. There was no other interaction before the cops showed up.
Also, the bathroom code thing? You’ve got that one wrong, too.
A black guy goes into a Starbucks. He’s going to buy something, but he also wants to use the bathroom. He tries to go to the bathroom first, because who wants to bring food into a bathroom? But he gets told no, he has to buy something first. So he gets in line. A white guy comes out of the bathroom, and gets in line behind him. The black guy asks the white guy, “Did you have to buy something before they gave you the bathroom code?” The white guy says, “No.”
If you still want to argue that these are everyday interactions experienced by all people in these situations, regardless of race, go ahead - I just thought you might want to get the stories straight before you went any further.
It’s not a choice. It is also not the choice of kids that do what they’re supposed to do. Having loser parents is certainly disadvantageous. Having parents that do what they’re supposed to do isn’t a privilege. It’s just having parents that do what they’re supposed to do. I went to public school, never got private tutoring, wasn’t born with a silver spoon in my mouth, my dad had multiple failing businesses and went bankrupt. My mom had to stick her foot out the door to help stop the car because they couldn’t afford to fix the breaks one month. Sometimes they couldn’t buy milk. I paid *every cent *of my college tuition. And yet, I’m supposed to be “privileged?”
Nope. They can have all their solutions. But they can’t have their solutions, some of which demonstrably discriminate against whites, and simultaneously get to spout of about white privilege. I mean, they can, but I will hear nothing of it.
Nope. Racial inequality exists. But not by law. It’s because on average, black people have children out of wedlock more. Black men abandon their kids more. Black men do stuff that leads to incarceration more. Is whitey making them do those things? NO.
Yes.
Are blacks under Jim Crow? No.
Hello? Get in your time travel machine and come back to us.
So you don’t think the justice system, on average, treats people differently based on race alone? You don’t think employers, on average, are less likely to hire people with stereotypically black names but the same experience? You don’t think the workplace treats natural black hairstyles differently than natural white hairstyles? You don’t think the media depicts people differently by race?
If not, when did all this change? When did all the racist and white supremacist practices cease, and how are you sure this is the case? How do you explain facts like that black defendants who are found guilty receive harsher sentences for the same crimes than white defendants who are found guilty?
That doesn’t answer the question. Do you think Jim Crow laws were racist? If so, then you believe laws can be racist even if the text doesn’t include race or racial categorization. If not… then I think you’re ignorant of history.
This, I think, is where the issue lies. You seem to be viewing white privilege as something good and extra that you have over non whites. However, the reality is that it is the absence of something bad that you don’t have to deal with because you look the way you do. So the reason you don’t perceive yourself having an extra benefit is because you are looking at it the wrong way. You don’t notice the bad stuff that you don’t have to deal with because you don’t have to deal with it.
Right. They’re disadvantaged because they didn’t have a stable home life. You were advantaged because you had a stable home life, but disadvantaged by economic circumstances. I was even more advantaged because I had a stable home life and relatively well-off parents who could do things like pay for my college.
Is “advantaged” somehow a better term than “privileged?”
Well, it’s a much more nuanced subject than that - both in your characterization of it, and your characterization of the opposite position, which is certainly more sophisticated than, “It’s whitey’s fault.”
Sorry, you seem to have missed the point of my comparison. You’re saying that laws can only be racist if their text is explicitly racist. I’m pointing out that that is a stupid thing to say, because there’s a long history of laws in this country that were obviously racist in intent, even if they were not explicitly racist in their text.
Why? Do you resent the implication that any success you have had is the result of any factor besides you pulling yourself up by your own boot straps?
Charming.
That’s not how things work around here.
These are not choices you made. These are aspects of your environment that you had no control over. Furthermore, maybe you were also fortunate that neither parent was injured in an accident that prevented them from working or suffered some financial disaster beyond their control.
Yes, I think everyone here understand that concept that good life choices tend to result in better economic opportunities. Certainly there are some choices that people can make like not getting involved in drugs, doing their homework, not getting knocked up and so on.
Which is not to say that your good fortune entitles someone less fortunate to take what you have. But let’s not pretend that people’s fortunes are also not often a result of government policies that provide or restrict access to certain resources.
I assumed it was a reference to frequency, but either way, do you have a cite (and how would one assign a dollar value to street crime like assault / rape / murder)?
I never said racism doesn’t exist, nor that you couldn’t find examples of it. However, those are not instances of “white privilege”, that’s just racism. Now, answer me this: Do you think there are no black racists? Do you think nothing bad, ever, happened to a white person because they were white? . Do you think that it is impossible to be racist if you are black?.
I do think Jim Crow laws existed. Now name a current Jim Crow law. Name any specific law currently on the books today that discriminates* against* blacks. And I will counter that with a law or program specifically created to *benefit *blacks. Please, by all means.
Well, thank god! Thank you so much for sparing me.
I really don’t have a problem with either of those terms to be honest. I have more of a problem when “white” is prepended to them. If you’re a person of any race whose parents waited til marriage to have you, stayed together, didn’t abandon you, encouraged your education, call yourself privileged if that’s how you want to describe yourself. I say baseline parenting shouldn’t be considered “privileged,” but whatever, feel free to describe yourself as that. I’m not going to describe myself as that. And I’m certainly not going to prefix it with a racial tag.
Really? Then I guess we really shouldn’t be throwing around this term. Because with every “bad” thing that happens, there MUST be a good thing that happens to somebody else, right? Every time I get through the day without being arrested (because I didn’t break any laws), I should thank a black person for getting thrown in prison for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
No I don’t think you should thank a black person for being arrested for no reason, but you should try to have some empathy for those dealing with things that you don’t have to maybe? This doesn’t have to be a topic that you take so personally and get so offended about. It’s not about you individually Ashtura, it’s about the world we all have to live in together. Some of us would like to see a day when nobody has to worry about getting arrested for no reason, but we have a ways to go to get to that world.
I’m not sure why we seem to have such a communication barrier on this. I feel like what I wrote was pretty clear, but I can’t even fathom how it would bring about this reaction from you. I can’t see any path from what I said to this response.
I hope for everyone’s sake that one day we can all speak with a common language about this stuff and at least try to understand one another.
No, no, and no, though I’ll note that the first and last just depends on the definition one uses for “racism” and “racist”. And those that I listed certainly are examples of “white privilege”, which encompasses many forms of racism. You might not like the term, or use it that way, and that’s fine – you don’t have to. But I do, and many others do, and common racist practices in society are part of privilege, including white privilege, by the way we use the term. In human language, usage determines definition. Like it or not, many people use “privilege” and “white privilege” in the way that we do, and thus that’s a legitimate usage of the words and phrase.
You still haven’t actually answered the question. If you do, I’ll be happy to answer yours.
A big part of white privilege is not having to deal with all the racist bullshit in this country. Which is not the same as saying that there are no black racists, or that there are no white people who have been disadvantaged because of their race. But for the vast majority of white people, anti-white racism is not something they encounter very often, and generally doesn’t severely impact them when it happens. The same is not true for most black people.
The caveat that always seems to be overlooked by people who are complaining about privilege as a concept is, “all else being equal.” All else being equal, it’s better to be white than it is to be black in this country. If your family is rich and well educated, it’s better to be white, rich and well educated than black, rich, and well educated. If your family is poor and ignorant, it’s better to be white, poor, and ignorant than black, poor, and ignorant. Is it better to be rich and black than poor and white? Yeah, generally, which is why, when discussing a particular type of privilege, you start with all else being equal.
Does “the entire criminal justice system” count as just one?
I think I see where the problem is. “White privilege” isn’t “stable home life” privilege. It’s not “well educated” privilege. Those are both very real types of privilege, but they’re not white privilege. Because a black person whose parents waited until they were married, who stayed together, who didn’t abandon their kid, who encouraged their education - that black person still has to deal with the pervasive racism in American society, and a white person from exactly the same background, doesn’t.
As a sidebar, I’m curious about your opinion about something: which of the three privileges you mention here do you think is most beneficial? In other words, if you had to pick just one, would you pick being white, having a stable home life, or being well-educated?