# Sniper theories **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 15, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325 "2002-10-15T14:23:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/21 "2002-10-16T07:33:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Tim \* > \*\*[http://www.penny-arcade.com/](http://www.penny-arcade.com/) > > Good comic and commentary on this all. \*\* > [@](#): > > Investigators are also watching Miss Cleo Ha! Priceless! ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Trari\_de\_Reeson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Count\_Trari\_de\_Reeson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Trari_de_Reeson)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/22 "2002-10-16T09:48:16Z")
I work in the area where this is happening, and until this guy gets caught I won’t be buying any more of my clothes at Target. ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/23 "2002-10-16T12:17:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\* > > I certainly wouldn’t classify military snipers as cowards. Anybody willing to get close to the enemy while being outgunned, outnumbered, and risking imminent death if captured isn’t a coward. > > Japanese snipers in WWII would sometimes climb in trees and shoot Marines. Since they were high in a tree if discovered they couldn’t even flee. That doesn’t sound cowardly to me. > > During the Viet-Nam war the NVA put out bounties on American snipers. Not just bounties based on their rank or function but by name. These same snipers still went out and did their job. That doesn’t sound cowardly to me. > > Or how about the two snipers who faced overwhelming odds in Somalia in 1993? Winning the Medal of Honor isn’t generally done by a pair of cowards. > > Marc \*\* OK, sheesh. My point wasn’t to bash on military personnel, of whom I’ve always had the greatest respect. FTR, if I were in the military, I’d want to be a sniper or special forces (I’m a woman, though, so I can want all I, uh, want and it won’t get me anywhere). I don’t think any military person who’s doing his job is a coward. I think he’s doing something that is, as I said, unfortunately necessary. And that goes from the front line grunt to the fighter pilot who drops missiles from thousands of feet (miles?) away. Back to the topic at hand, the witnesses to the latest killing said the guy was of apparent Middle Eastern descent. I’m of three minds with this. Either that’s what people expected to see so that’s what they saw, or the guy really is of Middle Eastern descent and is trying to impress bin Laden, or he is of Middle Eastern descent but he’s doing what he’s doing because he’s a nutjob (ok, the last is pretty much a given). But I have my doubts that bin Laden would waste his efforts for something that while it has one local area fearful, doesn’t affect the rest of the country much more than most other killings. I guess we’ll see eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/24 "2002-10-16T13:13:39Z")
At least the media _somehow_ withheld themselves from demonizing the “suspect” they had on Monday, whose crime now seems to be mainly that he was an ex-Marine, owned guns and a van, and was shot by his girlfriend. Although our local ABC affiliate here announced, just an hour before the Monday shooting, that the police “had their man”, and earlier that same day, the local NPR station had a commentator who wondered out loud if people in the military were perhaps getting “too much training to kill civilians”. :rolleyes: Last night, another local station here showed an AK-47 being fired at the hip by some doofus (actually, a MAK-90, same freaking thing almost) saying “…an assault rifle like this one…” Although they do make .223 kits and versions of the AK style, no one has put forth any convincing proof of the type of weapon it is. No one. So why puposely show an inflammatory picture of a gun being fired which is almost certainly not the same type of gun? Why not show a picture of a hunter with a Remington hunting rifle, in .223, out after deer?\* Because it didn’t serve the purpose - which is, in a year that has been “quiet” on gun-control issues, to ride this sick terrorist act as far as it will take them towards bringing the cries of “gun control!” to the forefront again. [sub]\* …maybe you don’t hunt deer with a .223, I don’t know. I’m opposed to hunting in many ways, and I don’t read much about it.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Skippman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skippman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skippman)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/25 "2002-10-16T13:28:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhum Runner \* > \*\ ***Skippman** you are an idiot. Shut the fuck up. \*\* Gee. That was mature. Thank you. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > \*\* > > The many times I’ve gone target shooting do not bear this out. First of all, the .223 is a larger bullet than the .22LR. Second, it has a HUGE powder charge by comparison, and a much higher velocity. Not exactly a recipe for bouncing around. > > Here’s some numbers (energy (ft-lbs)& momentum (slug ft/sec) calculated from weight in grains and velocity (ft/sec@100yd) for standard loads, from [www.remington.com](http://www.remington.com)): > > ```auto > > cal weight velocity KE Momentum > .22LR 40 941 79 .168 > .223 55 2273 944 .681 > > ``` > > So the .223 Remington is 37.5% more massive, moves almost 3 times faster, and delivers 11 times more KE and 4 times more Momentum to the target. And I’ve shot many nice, clean holes through 3/16" steel plate with my Mini-14. There’s no way a squishy human body is going to cause major ricochet with a .223. They kill by hitting really hard and making holes - Shock and blood loss, along with the occasional organ damage. > > And, not to condone this sick son of a bitch, but a “real sniper” would fire from whatever range the circumstances dictate, and would make his kills. This guy has done both, and meets my criteria for a “real sniper.” \*\* I cannot argue the laws of physics. I own an AR-15 but I’ve never done the kind of in-debth testing that shooting it at a steel plate would entail. I stand corrected. I was well aware of the increase in powder size. I was working off some information a game warden told me when I was deer hunting with said AR-15. He told me it was illegal. When I asked why, he told me the rifle would not make a clean kill and would probably bounce around inside the deer and get lodged in there. I admit that I was skeptical of this information when it was presented to me, but I took his word as a “professional” that this was true. I suppose that’s what I get for listing to someone else. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/26 "2002-10-16T14:11:55Z")
The albiet sick, SICK thought occurred to me: While watching the media stroke off on this thing the other night it occurred to me that were _I_ the sniper, I’d drop a note saying: “I will continue killing as long as you continue covering this.”. It wouldn’t stop them, of course, but it’d be morbidly fascinating to see the reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/27 "2002-10-16T14:17:34Z")
People apply whatever logic suits their book. In the aftermath of Columbine, some people claimed that it never would have happened if there had been prayer and a Christian influence in schools. Other people, or perhaps the same ones, condemned the film **The Basketball Diaries** …a real-life account of a teenager who attended a **parochial** school and still managed to become a junkie and commit violent crimes. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by DeadlyAccurate_ > **I wish people would quit trying to find answers in the unanswerable. The sniper is fucked up. Simple as that. No amount of computer games, books, movies or chicken noodle soup helped him along and anything he blames his problems on is his attempt to justify unjustifiable actions.** What he said. I remember a time when I was extremely bitter and fantasized idly about gunning down certain groups of people. If you knew the circumstances, you’d probably understand why I was bitter. But if I’d acted out those fantasies, it would have been on me. As badly as I was treated, no one could have been said to have **made** me pull the trigger. And I’m much happier now, which I certainly wouldn’t be if I’d done that. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/28 "2002-10-16T14:42:45Z")
Interesting scenario **MLC** ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/29 "2002-10-17T05:42:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > People apply whatever logic suits their book. In the aftermath of Columbine, some people claimed that it never would have happened if there had been prayer and a Christian influence in schools. Other people, or perhaps the same ones, condemned the film **The Basketball Diaries** …a real-life account of a teenager who attended a **parochial** school and still managed to become a junkie and commit violent crimes. That’s the difference between fantasy and reality. In real life, only public school students become junkies and criminals, of course. Today, on the news I heard a report on how hard it might be to track down a cream colored Chevy Astro, as it’s a very popular model, for a variety of reasons, such as a hundred mph top speed, and there might be thousands of them out there on the roads, according to a car dealer who sells them. At the end they mentioned that the police also got a partial license plate number, which would seem to me to be far more relevant information than how people like the reliable six-cylinder engine in the Astro. Stupid TV newspeople. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/30 "2002-10-17T06:45:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > **That’s the difference between fantasy and reality. In real life, only public school students become junkies and criminals, of course.** You’re being sarcastic, right? I mean, as I said, Jim Carroll was a real person who did do those things. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/31 "2002-10-17T06:48:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > **Today, on the news I heard a report on how hard it might be to track down a cream colored Chevy Astro, as it’s a very popular model, for a variety of reasons, such as a hundred mph top speed, and there might be thousands of them out there on the roads, according to a car dealer who sells them. At the end they mentioned that the police also got a partial license plate number, which would seem to me to be far more relevant information than how people like the reliable six-cylinder engine in the Astro.** Perhaps Chevrolet is a sponsor of that particular news program? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/32 "2002-10-17T07:51:04Z")
Sniper theories have driven me back into the arms of my beloved SDMB. I’ve been dedicating most of my online time to [FARK.com](http://FARK.com) – (I’m sure you all missed me terribly…) mostly because of the photoshop contests, but I got sucked into the comment threads on recent news items in the last week. I like FARK & all, but, uh, the ignorance level is about on par with the general populace, which is pretty depressing. I keep foolishly following angry-making links from harebrained purveyors of ignorant drivel, [Newsmax](http://www.newsmax.com/) and [WorldNet Daily](http://www.wnd.com) being the principal offenders. They are mainly about using any means possible to support the most hawkish policies of the Bush admin, and they are twisting things everywhich way to imply a middle east connection to the sniper. The one that pushed me over the edge was [this ludicrous bit of yellow journalism](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/10/16/233717.shtml). > [@](#): > > On Oct. 1, Fleischer told the White House press corps that “one bullet” into Saddam’s head – "if Iraqi people take it on themselves’’ – would be an easy way to avoid a war with the U.S. > > On Oct. 2, the day after Fleischer made this sensational comment advocating Saddam’s assassination, the sniper first struck, killing James D. Martin as he crossed a supermarket parking lot in Wheaton, Md. > > Since then, the shootings around Washington have had a terrorizing effect, paralyzing economic and social life around the Beltway. You see the implication: “We must be being attacked by Iraq, so clearly we must bomb them into submission.” Anyone spot the _post hoc_ fallacy? Of course ya did! You’re Dopers, that’s why I love y’all. [Aye, here’s my entry to a Fark PS contest, “Photoshop Celebrities Nightmares”](http://64.49.221.207/pix/larrymudd/bush_nightmare.jpg) It’s topical, really. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/33 "2002-10-17T11:18:19Z")
It gets more interesting… From [La Presse](http://www.cyberpresse.ca/reseau/monde/0210/mon_102100147264.html) (in French): > [@](#): > > _Pour ne pas devenir la proie du mystérieux tueur d’élite qui terrorise la région de Washington, ayez la bougeotte et marchez en zigzag, conseille désormais la police aux quelque cinq millions d’habitants de la capitale et de sa grande banlieue._ > > So as not to be a victim of the mysterious sniper terrorizing the Washington region, keep moving and walk in a zigzag, the police are advising the five million inhabitants of the capital and its suburbs. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/34 "2002-10-17T12:01:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skippman \* > \*\*This Ass-Clown sniper has no skill. He’s got guts though. > > A real sniper would be at LEAST 300 meters away and go for the head shot. This guy is at what a sniper would consider point blank range and is shooting center mass. The only reason he’s getting the kills he is is that he’s using a small caliber round. \*\* Holy shit. Your penis must be microscopic. People are dead, and you’re picking bones (no pun intened) over his being called a “sniper” because he isn’t far enough away and not shooting them in the head. Don’t you have some assault weapons that need cleaning, or a big stack of Clinton Target papers that need organizing? Fucking yutz. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/35 "2002-10-17T12:32:15Z")
**Matt** , I just heard that same thing on _Good Morning America_. I’m a few hundred miles from where the shootings are taking place, and I’ve got my own set of biases, but I’m sorry. There’s no way I would follow police advice about running in a zigzag fashion and ducking for cover just because some idiot decides to start killing people. Then again, I’ve also got a history of being knocked flat by bullies. Oh well, if I get killed being defiant in such a fashion, Dopers, please feel free to have a round on me. Oh, and **ultrafilter** , if you’re reading, all of a sudden I don’t feel so bad about that job falling through! 😉 CJ ---
**Author:** ![Skippman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skippman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skippman)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/36 "2002-10-17T12:49:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > \*\* > > Holy shit. > Your penis must be microscopic. > > People are dead, and you’re picking bones (no pun intened) over his being called a “sniper” because he isn’t far enough away and not shooting them in the head. > > Don’t you have some assault weapons that need cleaning, or a big stack of Clinton Target papers that need organizing? > > Fucking yutz. \*\* No where in my post did I say I condone what this man is doing. Or that I even symathise with him. What he’s doing is an attrocity to be sure. The point I was trying to make (unsucessfully) is that I don’t believe this man to be a trained military sniper. And I suppose all people who own guns are blood-thirsty sloped foreheaded killers. But that’s a subject for GD not here. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/37 "2002-10-17T12:53:00Z")
He may not be a trained military sniper. He may not be a good sniper. But he’s still a sniper. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/38 "2002-10-18T01:16:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skippman \* > \*\* > > No where in my post did I say I condone what this man is doing. Or that I even symathise with him. What he’s doing is an attrocity to be sure. The point I was trying to make (unsucessfully) is that I don’t believe this man to be a trained military sniper. > > And I suppose all people who own guns are blood-thirsty sloped foreheaded killers. But that’s a subject for GD not here. \*\* You, my friend, are full-o-shit. Your post clearly makes the inference that anyone who can shoot somebody in the head from 300 yards away is a “real man”. And I’m saying that anybody who shoots anybody anywhere from any distance is an asshole, and people who admire other people for their skill killing are as equally assholish … i.e. you. Fuck-nut. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/39 "2002-10-18T05:27:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLC \* > \*\*The albiet sick, SICK thought occurred to me: > > While watching the media stroke off on this thing the other night it occurred to me that were _I_ the sniper, I’d drop a note saying: “I will continue killing as long as you continue covering this.”. \*\* Ever read the book “Popcorn” by Ben Elton? Well, now you know its plot… It strikes me that - minus the note - what you’re describing might very well be the situation as it stands now. I’m sure that the sort of sick bastard who shoots random strangers is really getting off on watching himself in the news every night. Is it possible that a pact on the part of the news stations not to show any details of future killings might deprive him of the “validation” his sick mind is apparently looking for? Or would it just push him to shoot even more people to **force** the media to take notice? ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325/40 "2002-10-18T05:42:20Z")
> [@](#): > > You, my friend, are full-o-shit. Your post clearly makes the inference that anyone who can shoot somebody in the head from 300 yards away is a “real man”. > > And I’m saying that anybody who shoots anybody anywhere from any distance is an asshole, and people who admire other people for their skill killing are as equally assholish … i.e. you. Fuck-nut. From Skippman’s first post, I certainly didn’t get the impression that he admires the sniper or any sniper for that matter for their ability to kill a man from any distance. What I saw was a post where he attempted to say that the sniper was probably not someone who has been trained by the military or law enforcement to be a sniper. According to [this article in the Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43592-2002Oct17.html), the witness who claimed that the sniper was a male with mediterranean features driving a cream colored van made up the story. I hope that the sniper gets hit by a bus, or that the police catch him, or that he is killed in some freak home accident. I live in the DC area and this has definitely made me a little paranoid. I’m thinking of going to fill up the tank of my car in Arlington in one of the gas stations in Rosslyn. I’ve been avoiding places with big open parking lots, especially near highways. I feel safer in places like Arlington, the District, or Old Town Alexandria that have narrow streets and no wooded areas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sniper-theories/132325.md?page=3)