# SNL 12/11, specifically the musical guest **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419 "2004-12-12T06:28:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/121 "2004-12-13T23:46:57Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Of course, rock reviewers completely disagree with you. _Elephant_ is one of the highest rated CD’s Metacritic has ever rated. Or as [Rolling Stone](http://www.rollingstone.com/reviews/album/_/id/271218) said: “It is a glorious thing to hear. It will be one of the best things you hear all year.” > > But I’m sure all those unanimous rock critics are all a bunch of poseurs too, right? As are the millions of people who bought the CDs. Because they don’t think like YOU do. Oh yes, they certainly are. I have no interest in rock critics. I consider entertainment press to be pure pornography for the mind. However, I do apologize if I am as bad as NCB says. I don’t care to hurt anyone’s feelings. I hardly expect them to take me seriously, or care what I think. I do think I crossed the line, so I’m sorry. Put on your music and enjoy it and have a drink on me. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/122 "2004-12-14T00:00:35Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > Like what Roy Wood and Jeff Lynne of ELO did to The Move’s songs. 😛 > Actually, I kid. **Mr. Blue** , did you ever hear the non orchestrated version of _Evil Woman_ that got some airplay with the resurgance of ELO? I think it was Wood and Lynne before ELO, post The Move. It had some very heavy yet bluesy guitar riffs in place of the string section. I wish I had an accurate list of just which ones of them did it and when. Though ELO made it a hit, and deservedly so, that early version was amazing to hear. > Just a slight hijack off of an already hopelessly hijacked thread. Roy left after the first ELO album. It had been his intention all along after bringing Jeff in from The Idle Race. Roy went to form Wizzard. Are you sure it’s “Evil Woman” you’re talking about and not “Do Ya”? The Move did have a minor hit with “Do Ya” in the US. Jeff retooled it for _A New World Record_ and even then it was edited. The unedited version came out on _Flashback_ - a box set. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/123 "2004-12-14T00:10:12Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Listen to whatever you want. Thanks. I feel so validated. However, you dodged my main point. Why is it okay for The Scissor Sisters to be self-consciously retro-camp and not okay for The White Stripes to be self-consciously retro-ironic? This is, afterall, one of the main reasons you claim that The White Stripes are objectively crap. On this basis, you should also dislike The Scissor Sisters for the same reasons. That you don’t, implies that you’re full of shit and the whole “keeping it real” schtick is convenient to trash bands you don’t like but otherwise ignored when it comes to bands you do like. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/124 "2004-12-14T00:10:35Z")
> [@](#): > > I eagerly await some crappy band to start mutilating U2 songs. Get your hands on “U2” by Negativland. Far from “a crappy band”, but definitely a take on U2 that is as reverent as the Scissor Sisters’ take on Floyd. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/125 "2004-12-14T00:12:10Z")
I pretty much haven’t liked anything since about 1992. I live in the past and think these kids today don’t know what music is. That stuff they listen to now, that’s just noise, that is. “Balls to the Wall,” _that_ was music…I don’t know what happened…it used to be…zzzzzzzzzzzzzz ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/126 "2004-12-14T00:12:44Z")
Yeah, I have both versions of _Do Ya_. The _Evil Woman_ (pre?)cover was played by the late great KLOL- 101.1FM of Houston before they were absorbed by ABC Rock Radio™. The had a special version of Two-fer Tuedays once a moth where they played a famous rock song and then the earlier version of which it was a cover. The Van Halen stuff was a given, but I was surprised at many of the others. Including this one. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/127 "2004-12-14T00:13:11Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > “Balls to the Wall,” _that_ was music…I don’t know what happened…it used to be…zzzzzzzzzzzzzz [Beavis]You said balls…heh…heh…heh…heh…[/Beavis] ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/128 "2004-12-14T00:14:41Z")
> [@Hodge](#): > > Thanks. I feel so validated. > > However, you dodged my main point. Why is it okay for The Scissor Sisters to be self-consciously retro-camp and not okay for The White Stripes to be self-consciously retro-ironic? This is, afterall, one of the main reasons you claim that The White Stripes are objectively crap. On this basis, you should also dislike The Scissor Sisters for the same reasons. > > That you don’t, implies that you’re full of shit and the whole “keeping it real” schtick is convenient to trash bands you don’t like but otherwise ignored when it comes to bands you do like. Hah. He’s got you in a box, \*_Cicetus_. If self-conscious camp is ok for one group, why not another? At least the Jack White has the decency not to sing Bee Gees falsetto. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/129 "2004-12-14T00:16:18Z")
> [@Hodge](#): > > Thanks. I feel so validated. > > However, you dodged my main point. Why is it okay for The Scissor Sisters to be self-consciously retro-camp and not okay for The White Stripes to be self-consciously retro-ironic? This is, afterall, one of the main reasons you claim that The White Stripes are objectively crap. On this basis, you should also dislike The Scissor Sisters for the same reasons. > > That you don’t, implies that you’re full of shit and the whole “keeping it real” schtick is convenient to trash bands you don’t like but otherwise ignored when it comes to bands you do like. You asked me one direct question and I answered it. How am I to know what amazing grasp of the obvious you’ve made and need validated? What a smart young man you are. You realize that there are some similarities between a band I hate and a band I hate slightly less. Give yourself a gold star. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/130 "2004-12-14T00:19:12Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Hah. He’s got you in a box, \*_Cicetus_. If self-conscious camp is ok for one group, why not another? > > At least the Jack White has the decency not to sing Bee Gees falsetto. It’s not about self-concious crap. The White Stripes suck because they can’t play their fucking instruments. The drummer can’t even keep time. They’re posturing just adds to the annoying quality of their basic lack of ability. Their “minimalism” is a think cover for the fact that they barely know what the fuck they’re doing. If the drummer can learn how to fucking keep time, maybe I’ll reconsider the whole WS thing. I do think some of the lyrics are OK, but my main annoyance with them is the fact that they flat out suck as musicians. That’s not about genre. It’s about having objective fucking criteria for liking music. Call me old fashioned, a prude, a snob, but I like a drummer to fucking stay on rhythm. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/131 "2004-12-14T00:30:06Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not about self-concious crap. The White Stripes suck because they can’t play their fucking instruments. The drummer can’t even keep time. They’re posturing just adds to the annoying quality of their basic lack of ability. Their “minimalism” is a think cover for the fact that they barely know what the fuck they’re doing. If the drummer can learn how to fucking keep time, maybe I’ll reconsider the whole WS thing. I do think some of the lyrics are OK, but my main annoyance with them is the fact that they flat out suck as musicians. Now you’re just spouting ignorance. I’ll grant you that Meg is no Keith Moon, but she doesn’t have to be. Her minimalist drumming fits the music they are playing. But Jack White is damned near a guitar god. If you think he can’t play, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. He’s a fantastic rock/blues guitarist. He’s also a fantastic songwriter and producer. Go listent to what he did for Loretta Lynn on ‘Van Lear Rose’, or his work on the ‘Cold Mountain’ soundtrack. He can cross genres at will. He’s a huge musical talent. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/132 "2004-12-14T00:31:06Z")
Also, their tedious. I have an absolutely low threshold for reptitive music, which is why I’ve dismissed the genre of hip-hop along with most rave, techno, and TWS. Anything that is the same riff over and fucking over, pounding in my school, will make me borderline homicidal. I consider it inhumane to even make such music, especially when my neighbors can buy it and play it at window-rattling volumes outside my window. Also, the girl at the record store told me it was good, and I spent like $16 on Elephant. She PROMISED me it was good. I’m sure I would have half the animosity if I simply had not been sucked into giving Jack and Meg my hard earned money, but I pray fervently that Meg would use it for drum lessons or Jack for anger management classes. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/133 "2004-12-14T00:35:41Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Now you’re just spouting ignorance. I’ll grant you that Meg is no Keith Moon, but she doesn’t have to be. Her minimalist drumming fits the music they are playing. And she’s off rhythm some times. Even if she was merely minimalist (and not simply bad), the drums are corny. And repitive. See above. > [@](#): > > But Jack White is damned near a guitar god. If you think he can’t play, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. He’s a fantastic rock/blues guitarist. He’s also a fantastic songwriter and producer. Go listent to what he did for Loretta Lynn on ‘Van Lear Rose’, or his work on the ‘Cold Mountain’ soundtrack. He can cross genres at will. He’s a huge musical talent. He’s a competent blues riff replicator. He plays the same riff over and over and over for six, seven minutes. Now a certain amount of repitition is tradition in blues, but it seems like a joke when he does it. I remember this very talented friend in college, who used to pick up a guitar and play a riff over and over, and make up lyrics, as a (affectionate) parody of blues. If he’d made a career of that, he’d be Jack White. Don’t get me started on Van Lear Rose. SO over-rated. I got suckered into buying that one, too. Cold Mountain is good, but it’s a T Bone Burnett project. He’s King Midas, Producer. Everything the man touches is gold. Jack’s vocals do fit the CD. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/134 "2004-12-14T00:41:29Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > It’s not about self-concious crap. The White Stripes suck because they can’t play their fucking instruments. That may or may not be so, but that’s not why you were originally trashing them: > [@cricetus](#): > > No, The White Stripes ARE tedious, and I DO wonder how anyone can listen to them without kicking in the fucking stereo. Every song is in quotes, like, “a blues song might go like this!”, as if the whole thing is a fucking joke to them, and then they do that line over and over, and call it a song. Your original complaints were about repetition and posturing. First, you dodge my main point and now you try to change your arguement. > [@](#): > > Their “minimalism” is a think cover for the fact that they barely know what the fuck they’re doing. If the drummer can learn how to fucking keep time, maybe I’ll reconsider the whole WS thing. I do think some of the lyrics are OK, but my main annoyance with them is the fact that they flat out suck as musicians. That’s not about genre. It’s about having objective fucking criteria for liking music. Call me old fashioned, a prude, a snob, but I like a drummer to fucking stay on rhythm. Sorry, but I think she does keep time. She’s not flashy or even particularly good but she does hit the beats and that’s all that’s required. You may not like the stripped down primitivism of the music but it most definitely is a matter of choice or genre. Jack White is actually a very accomplished guitarist, songwriter and producer with a real understanding of country, folk and the blues. See Loretta Lynn’s _Van Lear Rose_ and the soundtrack to _Cold Mountain_. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/135 "2004-12-14T00:43:00Z")
Hodge, you need to take a sabbatical from Music Magazine tripe. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/136 "2004-12-14T00:43:28Z")
Damn, **Sam** beat me to most of my points. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/137 "2004-12-14T00:48:31Z")
> [@Hodge](#): > > Damn, **Sam** beat me to most of my points. I’m through with this. Talk to me in 5 years and we’ll see where your White Stripes are. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/138 "2004-12-14T00:53:30Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Hodge, you need to take a sabbatical from Music Magazine tripe. I haven’t read a music magazine since the 80s. I do use the internet for discussion and new recommendations but that’s almost exclusively through message boards like this. My opinions and tastes are based on a life-long love of music. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/139 "2004-12-14T01:13:12Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > It’s not about self-concious crap. The White Stripes suck because they can’t play their fucking instruments. The drummer can’t even keep time. They’re posturing just adds to the annoying quality of their basic lack of ability. Their “minimalism” is a think cover for the fact that they barely know what the fuck they’re doing. If the drummer can learn how to fucking keep time, maybe I’ll reconsider the whole WS thing. I do think some of the lyrics are OK, but my main annoyance with them is the fact that they flat out suck as musicians. That’s not about genre. It’s about having objective fucking criteria for liking music. Call me old fashioned, a prude, a snob, but I like a drummer to fucking stay on rhythm. With due respect, dude, this post just shows an ignorance of musicanship. I’ve been playing guitar for 22 years. Jack White can rip. I know what I’m talking about because **I** can rip. I don’t mean to insult you, but maybe the Stripes just sound weird to you, more amateurish perhaps, because they don’t have a bass and their recordings tend to be (deliberately) a little under produced. They’re trying to sound like they’re in somebody’s basement. You’re hearing how a band sounds without all the artificial sweeteners and producing tricks and maybe it seems little raw at first blush. The drummer, I grant you, is not exactly Neil Peart but she’s competent and keeps adequate time. You don’t have to like them, that’s a matter of taste, but it’s a matter of _fact_ that they can at least play their instruments. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419/140 "2004-12-14T05:06:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The drummer, I grant you, is not exactly Neil Peart but she’s competent and keeps adequate time. I wonder if Neil Peart has nightmares about being the drummer in the White Stripes? His technical prowess would be so wasted. He would be so bored. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snl-12-11-specifically-the-musical-guest/279419.md?page=8)