# Snooker query **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623 "2007-05-10T23:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/1 "2007-05-10T23:39:19Z")
What happens in Snooker if a player is unable to play a valid shot? E.g. the last red ball is surrounded by colours and there is absolutely no way for the cueball to hit the red. If this were following a foul, then there could be a free ball, but what if it were after a legal shot? ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/2 "2007-05-10T23:45:14Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] What happens in Snooker if a player is unable to play a valid shot? E.g. the last red ball is surrounded by colours and there is absolutely no way for the cueball to hit the red. If this were following a foul, then there could be a free ball, but what if it were after a legal shot? [/QUOTE] It’s been a while since I played snooker, but as I recall, that’s rather the definition of being “snookered” – when you have no clean shot at a legal ball, leaving you to just try your best. If you hit a coloured ball, you take the point value hit. I don’t know if this differs from tournament rules, but that’s how I was taught to play. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/3 "2007-05-10T23:47:34Z")
You’ve either just been snookered by your opponent, or you’ve just snookered yourself. You have to take the shot. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/4 "2007-05-10T23:48:04Z")
Never heard the verb - ‘snookered’? I _think_ I’m right in saying that the ball has to be played, but if a foul is committed, the opposing player has the right to ask for it to be returned to the spot where it was played and taken again, because the resulting position is not to their liking. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/5 "2007-05-10T23:56:57Z")
[QUOTE=Mindfield] It’s been a while since I played snooker, but as I recall, that’s rather the definition of being “snookered” – when you have no clean shot at a legal ball, leaving you to just try your best. [/QUOTE] No, this is a step beyond that: not just no clean shot, but no possible shot. In a simple snooker, the person who causes the snooker can ask for the balls to be replaced. In this case this would give him an infinite number of points because he could keep on asking for the balls to be replaced indefinitely. Consider a case like ```auto | |YG |RBr C |PBl | ``` There is simply no way for the cue ball C to get to the red ball R. What’s the rule? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/6 "2007-05-11T00:03:58Z")
> [@](#): > > When Red is the ball on, if the cue-ball is obstructed from hitting different Reds by different balls not on, there is no effective snookering ball. [http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk/files/EBSA/EBSRA/EBSRArulesSnkEng.htm](http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk/files/EBSA/EBSRA/EBSRArulesSnkEng.htm) In short: tough shit! ---
**Author:** ![T\_SQUARE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@T\_SQUARE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_SQUARE)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/7 "2007-05-11T00:23:40Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] [http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk/files/EBSA/EBSRA/EBSRArulesSnkEng.htm](http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk/files/EBSA/EBSRA/EBSRArulesSnkEng.htm) In short: tough shit! [/QUOTE] So game over? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/8 "2007-05-11T00:30:28Z")
[QUOTE=T\_SQUARE] So game over? [/QUOTE] No, as far as I can see, you have to play a shot! ---
**Author:** ![T\_SQUARE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@T\_SQUARE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_SQUARE)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/9 "2007-05-11T00:37:02Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] No, as far as I can see, you have to play a shot! [/QUOTE] But there’s no way not to foul, right? And after you foul, I thought someone up thread said the other guy can make you try again, where you will again foul. Wouldn’t this go on and on? ---
**Author:** ![Fast\_n\_Bulbous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ab992/32.png) [@Fast\_n\_Bulbous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fast_n_Bulbous)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/10 "2007-05-11T01:27:35Z")
The balls may only be replaced if the referee calls a miss. A miss is only called if the referee believes the player playing the shot has not made a good enough effort to hit a ball. In this case a miss would not be called. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/11 "2007-05-11T04:07:01Z")
You take the shot, hit the wrong ball, he gets some points (4 or the value of the ball you hit, which ever is higher), you get on with the game. If you’ve failed to dislodge the balls sufficiently and left yourself in another snooker, yes, (s)he can force you to play again. But you wouldn’t, failing all else you’d smack the balls all over the table and almost certainly get a clear shot next time. ---
**Author:** ![T\_SQUARE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@T\_SQUARE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_SQUARE)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/12 "2007-05-11T04:57:02Z")
OK, so if the other guy makes you play again, the balls are not reset. This is to prevent an endless string of light taps into a group of penalty balls. No? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/13 "2007-05-11T05:36:53Z")
[QUOTE=T\_SQUARE] OK, so if the other guy makes you play again, the balls are not reset. This is to prevent an endless string of light taps into a group of penalty balls. No? [/QUOTE] What would be the purpose of doing so, other than capitulation? (4 points to the opponent each time.) ---
**Author:** ![T\_SQUARE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@T\_SQUARE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_SQUARE)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/14 "2007-05-11T05:51:48Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] What would be the purpose of doing so, other than capitulation? (4 points to the opponent each time.) [/QUOTE] OK, I hope I didn’t give the impression that I am some kind of snooker expert, as I most certainly am not. In fact, I’m probably missing an obvious and fundamental concept of the game entirely. But, as I see it: From a game theory point, if I knew I _had_ to hit a colored ball (thus incurring a penalty), I certainly would not hit it hard enough to dislodge the group. Next turn, my opponent would be in the same boat. Why let him out of the boat? Notes: 1. This is assuming any gentlemanly behavior is out the window. 2. This is also assuming there is no tie provision, which there probably is. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/15 "2007-05-11T05:54:25Z")
That’s why the opponent can ask for it to be reset for you to play it again - and they’ll get another 4 points. Forcing unplayable positions isn’t considered unsporting, although doing so with the cueball at the very far end of the table from a couple of remaining reds is the normal way you’ll see it done. ---
**Author:** ![T\_SQUARE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@T\_SQUARE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_SQUARE)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/16 "2007-05-11T05:58:43Z")
G-Man, I’m not trying to argue here, I’m genuinely trying to learn more about snooker, but isn’t that what I said in post #12? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/17 "2007-05-11T06:04:40Z")
Ah, yes, I see the confusion! I’ll try and explain properly this time 🙂 … In this scenario, that the cue is surrounded by colours and the player is expected to hit a red… - because a red cannot be hit, any shot is considered to be a valid shot at the ‘ball on’ (it’s normally a foul to play any shot judged to not be an attempt to hit the correct ball) (and jump shots are not allowed) - as a valid shot which fails to hit the ball on, the opponent can either take the four points and play the balls as they lie, or request that _all_ balls be repositioned and the shot replayed - um, why did I use bullet points? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/18 "2007-05-11T07:24:41Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Ah, yes, I see the confusion! I’ll try and explain properly this time 🙂 … In this scenario, that the cue is surrounded by colours and the player is expected to hit a red… - because a red cannot be hit, any shot is considered to be a valid shot at the ‘ball on’ (it’s normally a foul to play any shot judged to not be an attempt to hit the correct ball) (and jump shots are not allowed) - as a valid shot which fails to hit the ball on, the opponent can either take the four points and play the balls as they lie, or request that _all_ balls be repositioned and the shot replayed - um, why did I use bullet points? 😉 [/QUOTE] Don’t get your second point, **Gorillaman**. As **Fast and bulbous** says, the balls _only_ get repositioned after a foul if a miss is called; or if you leave your opponent without clear sight of the object ball. You can’t just ask for the balls to be repositioned after any foul shot that was not called a ‘miss’. If a miss would be called in this scenario, you would be bolloxed, as three misses means you forfeit the game. ---
**Author:** ![Roog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a87d85/32.png) [@Roog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roog)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/19 "2007-05-11T08:08:54Z")
[QUOTE=Fast ‘n’ Bulbous] The balls may only be replaced if the referee calls a miss. A miss is only called if the referee believes the player playing the shot has not made a good enough effort to hit a ball. In this case a miss would not be called. [/QUOTE] Since no miss was called, the balls are not replaced. The other player is snookered after a foul and is therefore awarded a free ball. And the game goes on. Just because there is no snookering ball or balls doesn’t mean the player is not snookered. You only forfeit the game after three misses are called in a situation where the referee has determined that you have not made a genuine attempt to hit a ball that is on. The record for the most consecutive misses (12) is held by John Higgins, this year’s winner of the world championship. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623/20 "2007-05-11T08:33:26Z")
[QUOTE=T\_SQUARE] OK, I hope I didn’t give the impression that I am some kind of snooker expert, as I most certainly am not. In fact, I’m probably missing an obvious and fundamental concept of the game entirely. But, as I see it: From a game theory point, if I knew I _had_ to hit a colored ball (thus incurring a penalty), I certainly would not hit it hard enough to dislodge the group. Next turn, my opponent would be in the same boat. Why let him out of the boat? Notes: 1. This is assuming any gentlemanly behavior is out the window. 2. This is also assuming there is no tie provision, which there probably is. [/QUOTE] So just in case this has not been answered clearly enough, if you leave your opponent snookered after you have made a foul shot, the referee also awards a “free ball” - the opponent will nominate any ball on the table as counting as a red, and can hit it without penalty, so he would _not_ be in the same boat. If it is potted, it counts as a red and the next ball “on” will be a colour; however, being a colour it is re-spotted (as a red would not be). Hence, if you’re in this position, you might as well dislodge the balls in your doomed shot as you cannot profit by leaving them where they are. The existence of the “free ball” rule means that the theoretical maximum break in snooker is 155, not 147; if your opponent foul-snookers you with all 15 reds still on, you can pot a free ball of your choice, then the black, and then complete a normal 147 break. Last time I looked, this had never been done. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snooker-query/403623.md?page=2)