# Snoopy and the Red Baron **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 23, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711 "2013-03-23T03:54:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/41 "2013-03-26T22:23:25Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > During WWI, the Camel was the _ne plus ultra_ if you were an Allied fighter pilot; there were some more compact versions, the Snipe and the Pup, but the Camel… The rotary engine gave it so much torque that an experienced pilot could make it dance in a dogfight (just like the Red Baron’s Fokker Triplane\*). It made sense that Snoopy would fly a Camel, rather than a Neiuport or a Spad. It just wouldn’t have been the same. > [/SIZE] The Sopwith was the choice plane for sheer dogfighting. It was dangerous in that it could kill a lesser pilot. Odd things like the engine throttle was either completely on or off. Hence that iconic start-stop noise of the era. The Triplane was nimble as all getup, but kinda slow. The Red Baron only used it for the later quarter of his kills. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/42 "2013-03-26T23:01:18Z")
For fans of the Camel check this out: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/j6PnKUEFX8g/hqdefault.jpg "Sopwith Camel and Spitfire flying in formation") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6PnKUEFX8g) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/43 "2013-03-26T23:28:29Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > For fans of the Camel check this out: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6PnKUEFX8g](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6PnKUEFX8g) My God, that’s even better than sex!!! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/44 "2013-03-27T00:10:00Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > \*\*Did the von Richthofen family resent the Snoopy cartoons? > > Did they ask for them to be discontinued?\*\* Why would they? I don’t remember the Red Baron ever being ridiculed in the strip. Having a long dead member of their family occasionally mentioned in a syndicated comic strip was the least of the indignities suffered by a family of East Prussian aristocrats in the 20th Century. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/45 "2013-03-27T02:02:29Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I also got this boardgame for Christmas, probably in 1965. I spent HOURS playing it: > > [http://www.odinartcollectables.com/images/dogfight1.jpg](http://www.odinartcollectables.com/images/dogfight1.jpg) OMG, I had that game as a kid. I haven’t thought about it in 40 years or so. I wouldn’t say it was my favorite game, probably Skittle Bowl or Bask-it. Burt, yeah, played it a lot. I also remember as a kid visiting the Rhinebeck Aerodrome someone mentioned and they let me sit in the cockpit, or whatever it was,of some old plane 1908 Bleriot??? probably because I was the only one close to the original pilot’s weight/size (5’ 100 lbs). ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/46 "2013-03-27T02:09:44Z")
The iron cross used on WWI German aircraft also had a resurgence in the Sixties. They were all the rage in the Boys Club craft shop where we cut them out of sheets of psychedelic colored resin. Put them on a string and you looked like a Banana Splits version of Roy Orbison. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/47 "2013-03-27T04:57:04Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > I also remember as a kid visiting the Rhinebeck Aerodrome someone mentioned and they let me sit in the cockpit, or whatever it was,of some old plane 1908 Bleriot??? probably because I was the only one close to the original pilot’s weight/size (5’ 100 lbs). I saw _TMMiTFM_ with my dad and my brother in what must have been November 1965. My favorite airplane in that movie was the one the horny Frenchman flew: [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/7191/6817719714_02ab1ebd67_b.jpg "Audemars sur Demoiselle Clement-Bayard (Type Santos-Dumont)") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/aerofossile2012/6817719714/in/pool-1850454@N22) [![](http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/7/9/1341850643830/A-scene-from-Those-Magnif-006.jpg) ](http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/7/9/1341850643830/A-scene-from-Those-Magnif-006.jpg) I would love to have a full-scale replica of this craft at some point in what’s left of my life, along with a youthful Sarah Miles lookalike to tend to my every, every need. 🆒 [![](https://jamesriverfilm.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/sarah-miles.gif) ](https://jamesriverfilm.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/sarah-miles.gif) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/48 "2013-03-27T05:00:53Z")
Another view: [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/7034/6803745185_c7ecc7cb1b_b.jpg "1909-1999 Santos-Dumont Demoiselle Type 20 replica (1)") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/austin7nut/6803745185/in/pool-1850454@N22) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/49 "2013-03-27T05:19:18Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > The Triplane was nimble as all getup, but kinda slow. The Red Baron only used it for the later quarter of his kills. Sopwith produced a triplane as well, but its performance wasn’t as good as the Camel and its derivatives: [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/5294/5517575373_ab656111d0_b.jpg "Shuttleworth Collection Sopwith Triplane") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/shuttleworthpix/5517575373/in/pool-svas-ps/) ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/50 "2013-03-27T14:53:13Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > The Sopwith was the choice plane for sheer dogfighting. It was dangerous in that it could kill a lesser pilot. That’s why I thought the Sopwith Pup, with the same abilities as the Camel, but less of the accidental-spiral-dive-of-death bug, was preferred as soon as it was available. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/51 "2013-03-27T15:21:00Z")
Even if Schulz didn’t originally intend for the WW1 aviator gag to go on for so long, the fact remains that, while Schulz was a kid, there was still a certain glamor to the World War 1 flyboys. Indeed, they were about the ONLY glamorous thing about World War 1. For the typical soldier, The Great War meant years of cowering in trenches. But “flying aces” didn’t see that aspect of war. They were cool, glamorous, latter day knights engaged in one on one combat. Flight itelf was fairly new when the GReat War started (airplanes themselves were barely a decade old when the Wright brothers made their first flight at Kitty Hawk), and dogfighting was BRAND new. Of course it captured people’s imaginations. The very first movie to win an Oscar was _ **Wings,** _ all about WW1 aviators. That’s the kind of movie kids Charles Chulz’s age grew up watching. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/52 "2013-03-27T15:51:57Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > As an aside, Tom Clancy refers to it as a “Fokker Trimotor” in one of his novels. An unforgivable error bordering on sacrilege! What about Clancy and a [Fokker Trimotor?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_F.VII) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/53 "2013-03-27T19:54:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What about Clancy and a [Fokker Trimotor?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_F.VII) Your question being …??? 😕😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/54 "2013-03-27T20:04:14Z")
> [@bup](#): > > That’s why I thought the Sopwith Pup, with the same abilities as the Camel, but less of the accidental-spiral-dive-of-death bug, was preferred as soon as it was available. It turns out the Pup came first, in 1916. It had good performance characteristics, but was still outclassed by its German contemporaries. Compared to the Camel, it was underpowered and underarmed. It was replaced with the Camel by the end of 1917. > **[Sopwith Pup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopwith_Pup)** > > The Sopwith Pup is a British single-seater biplane fighter aircraft built by the Sopwith Aviation Company. It entered service with the Royal Naval Air Service and the Royal Flying Corps in the autumn of 1916. With pleasant flying characteristics and good manoeuvrability, the aircraft proved very successful. The Pup was eventually outclassed by newer German fighters, but it was not completely replaced on the Western Front until the end of 1917. The remaining Pups were relegated to Home Defence... ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/55 "2013-03-27T20:05:55Z")
It’s not about Clancy and a Fokker Trimotor. It’s about Clancy, a Fokker Trimotor, _and the Red Baron_. The last two things don’t belong together and the first one belongs in a remedial History class. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/56 "2013-03-27T20:09:01Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > It’s not about Clancy and a Fokker Trimotor. It’s about Clancy, a Fokker Trimotor, _and the Red Baron_. The last two things don’t belong together and the first one belongs in a remedial History class. Am I the only one reading this who’s totally lost here??? 😕😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/57 "2013-03-27T20:22:26Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Am I the only one reading this who’s totally lost here??? 😕😕😕 A Fokker Trimotor is a real thing (a 1920s commercial airliner). But not what Clancy was thinking of when he wrote about the Red Baron flying around in a red one. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/58 "2013-03-27T20:30:28Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > It turns out the Pup came first, in 1916. It had good performance characteristics, but was still outclassed by its German contemporaries. Compared to the Camel, it was underpowered and underarmed. > > It was replaced with the Camel by the end of 1917. > > [Sopwith Pup - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopwith_Pup) Huh. How did I have that backward? Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/59 "2013-03-27T20:31:00Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > A Fokker Trimotor is a real thing (a 1920s commercial airliner). But not what Clancy was thinking of when he wrote about the Red Baron flying around in a red one. Yes, I know about the Fokker Trimotor. There was also a Ford Trimotor, a Junkers trimotor (the Ju-52), and probably others that are more obscure. A trimotor is not the same thing as a triplane: [http://www.ohtm.org/images/collect/air/FOKKER1.jpg](http://www.ohtm.org/images/collect/air/FOKKER1.jpg) This is why Clancy made an egregious error in _The Bear and the Dragon_ when he mentioned “the Red Baron in his Fokker Trimotor” in talking about aerial combat. Von Richtofen flew a Fokker Triplane (the Dr-I), not a Fokker Trimotor. I fail to see how anyone could confuse the two. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711/60 "2013-03-27T20:37:47Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Huh. How did I have that backward? > > Interesting. I earlier thought the Pup was a derivative of the Camel too, but it turns out it was the other way around. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snoopy-and-the-red-baron/653711.md?page=4)