# Snow day staff payment-am I being unreasonable? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971 "2016-02-02T18:28:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/81 "2016-02-03T19:18:26Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I think the OP resolved this well, but I also agree with this. > > Encouraging anyone to be out on the roads was not only disrespectful of your employee’s and patient’s lives, but it’s reckless with the lives of the snow removal crews and the people who absolutely have to be out there. 55 people were killed in weather related accidents, the majority of which were killed on the roads. > > If there is any way at all to do it, during a historic storm like this people need to stay home, let the snow removal crews do their job, and wait until the roads are clear to get back to business. Trying to go out just puts people in danger and makes the snow removal process even longer. Let’s not ignore that the OP is basically kind of ticked off that two employees didn’t trudge through impassable streets to make it in for the afternoon in which one patient showed up. Srsly? But I agree, 1/2 day for Friday and a 1/2 day for Monday seems a reasonable outcome from the established policy. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/82 "2016-02-03T19:22:45Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Is it OK with you if they use paid time off and get paid for staying at home and not working? Sure, why wouldn’t it be? I suspect that’s how most private businesses handle it for hourly workers. I’m thinking you were using sarcasm or being snarky, but if so, I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/83 "2016-02-03T19:29:30Z")
Well, I would not want to work for you because you seem to be making up policy as you go along and that never sits well with me. I would find an employer who lays out their policies in clear language and is very clear when the situation comes up. If you were so clear that you’d be opening on Monday afternoon, then why do your employees have an expectation of getting paid for a snow day? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/84 "2016-02-03T19:51:37Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Do you really go by the federal government’s snow policy? In my experience, the government is far too lenient and lets workers slack. After all, it’s the taxpayers’ money. You realize that for the most part, federal employees are required to telework through snow emergencies, right? ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/85 "2016-02-03T20:00:46Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > You realize that for the most part, federal employees are required to telework through snow emergencies, right? Sure. And of the entire total federal workforce in a region, how many can do their jobs at home? And of that total, how many are diligent about getting work done on a snow day? But that isn’t what this thread is about, in any case. I’ve already said that it makes sense for employees who are able and willing to work from home, a clear policy should be in place for snow days. But what about the others? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/86 "2016-02-03T20:13:47Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > ++ I would greatly simplify your policy. If an hourly employee doesn’t show up for work - whether you call a snow day or they decide to not drive in - they don’t get paid. You pay them to show up for work and work, not to sit at home. I’m astounded that a private employer would pay someone to stay at home and not work. What if the boss is snowed in and can’t come to work, but the employees do? Do they get paid for waiting outside the door? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/87 "2016-02-03T20:18:46Z")
> [@Macca26](#): > > My boss does this now and it’s the absolute worst. Don’t do it. All it does is create stress in the employees where they wonder if you’re feeling “nice” today or not, sitting at home thinking about if something is REALLY bad enough to warrant staying home and MAYBE not getting paid, and what if last week I had done X instead of Y, maybe I’d get my day’s pay and what if I hadn’t had that dentist’s appointment the week before, NOW he definitely won’t because he’ll gripe about it being “too often” and… > > Yeah, no. Just write a clear and consistent policy and don’t leave paying people up to whether you’re in a good mood or not. But this is the OP’s policy now, only it’s worse because the employees believe there is a snow day policy, but in reality she can override the policy at her discretion at any time. ---
**Author:** ![Macca26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Macca26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Macca26)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/88 "2016-02-03T20:35:41Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Question - how is it possible to write a clear and consistent policy about closing due to weather and other emergencies that isn’t dependent on \*someone’s \*discretion ? I’m serious - even if you pick something like “we close when X closes” ( X can be the schools or the Fed, state or local government offices) , you’re still leaving it to the discretion of whoever decides to close those institutions and the employees will be wondering if it’s bad enough to stay home and maybe not get paid until _that_ person makes a decision. > > You seem to be talking about a situation where you don’t find out whether you’ll be paid until after you’ve taken the day off (which actually does happen to me\* ) , but that isn’t a necessary part of closing being at the owner’s discretion. If the owner calls the employees at 7 am and says 'we’re opening at 2" , it’s pretty clear the office is opening at 2 and I wouldn’t be wondering about whether I’d get paid if I didn’t show up- I would just assume I wouldn’t . > > - I work for a state government, and the offices rarely close due to weather or anything else. Typically, what happens is they remain open,people who can get in come to work and people who can’t get in use their leave time.The various affected agencies later seek permission to excuse absences and restore leave used on those days. I missed including the quote chain but it was in reference to this post: > [@boytyperanma](#): > > If it were my office I’d pay them for Friday and Monday and I’d cancel the snow day pay policy, clearly it’s just causing confusion. > > In the future if you don’t want them to suffer due to lost hours on snow days you can always choose to pay them at your own discretion even if no policy for doing so exists. Which is essentially a policy of “giving them paid time off if you’re in a good mood”. I was not referencing discretion of when to cancel work, but rather if paid time off should be given out on a whim or not. Paid time off can easily be laid out in a clear way through policy. “Under these conditions only, you will get paid time off” You can know ahead of time when you ask for a day off or a snowstorm happens if it qualifies for PTO or not, and if the boss denies your request then you know where you stand. When the boss leaves it up to their whim to pay you for time off or not, and they pay you on three separate instances but not the fourth, it creates stress as you try to determine, “but why did I get those days paid and this day not? Should I ask? What if they’re mad? I didn’t do anything, but…” Those bosses also trend more towards, “you should be so GRATEFUL I gave you the present of PAID time off” which is just a petty environment to be in, as well. That’s why I was saying, don’t start a policy where you pay people at your own discretion. Decide on the days off at your own discretion, but not in how payment ties into those days off. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/89 "2016-02-03T20:43:32Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > Half day for Friday and half day for Monday is the right answer based on the policy and facts as presented. > > However, if I worked for you and you made that decision with the conditions in DC that Monday, I’d have no loyalty to you and start looking for another job. In the DC market, that isn’t an idle threat. How hard is it going to be to replace these with equivalent quality? Yeah. Look, sure you could get away with two half days. But that is going to cause resentment. Is giving out a half day extra going to break you? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/90 "2016-02-03T20:44:52Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > You realize that for the most part, federal employees are required to telework through snow emergencies, right? If their job can support it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/91 "2016-02-03T21:02:12Z")
What about those lazy teachers who probably get paid when schools are closed for snow? Nobody has mentioned how shiftless they are. They should telecommute at least, if not call up students on the phone during the duration of the snow emergencies and check in on their lessons. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/92 "2016-02-03T21:06:20Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What about those lazy teachers who probably get paid when schools are closed for snow? Nobody has mentioned how shiftless they are. They should telecommute at least, if not call up students on the phone during the duration of the snow emergencies and check in on their lessons. Teachers generally make up their snow days at the end of the school year, so they still work their 186 days a year (or whatever the contract says), even if they have to shorten their summer vacation. Although I have heard some schools are changing so that lessons will indeed be held on snow days, and students and teachers alike are expected to be at their laptops doing lessons. I can’t imagine that is very popular with either the students or teachers, though. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/93 "2016-02-03T21:08:09Z")
> [@Macca26](#): > > Paid time off can easily be laid out in a clear way through policy. “Under these conditions only, you will get paid time off” You can know ahead of time when you ask for a day off or a snowstorm happens if it qualifies for PTO or not, and if the boss denies your request then you know where you stand. What I’m saying is that that’s not really possible. If I understand you correctly, what you’re saying is that the boss should close the office at his or her discretion, but have a policy of paying employees only under certain conditions. What would the conditions be? I guess I need an example of what conditions you mean, becasue i have a vision of " You get paid if there is more than two feet of snow or winds over 35 mph. If there is 20 inches of snow and the wind is only 29 MPH, you don’t get paid" Or is it “I’ll pay you when the schools close”- but that depends on the school board deciding to close, and who knows what criteria they use. Suppose she makes a detailed policy about paying for snow days and a hurricane happens instead? Apparently, if I’m understanding you correctly, you object to paying people when there is a policy not to pay so if the policy doesn’t address hurriccanes, the employees don’t get paid. I don’t see what is so unclear or inconsistent about a policy of “I will notify you in the morning if I am closing the office. I will pay you if I close the office. I will not pay you if the office is open and you choose to take the time off.” And I really don’t see the objection to “The policy is that you don’t get paid- but I’m going to pay you anyway.” - sure it’s inconsistent, but does anyone really prefer knowing that they will consistently not be paid to having the possibility of being paid? That would be like objecting to a bonus in your paycheck because you don’t know when or if you will get one again, so you’ll be wondering every week if you’ll have extra money. Better to never have the extra money than to wonder, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/94 "2016-02-03T21:16:55Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Sure, why wouldn’t it be? I suspect that’s how most private businesses handle it for hourly workers. > > I’m thinking you were using sarcasm or being snarky, but if so, I don’t get it. Just narrowing down what you are astounded by. Your statement sounded too general for what I thought you meant. That being said, we have had one official snow day that I can remember and my private employer paid it as a snow day. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/95 "2016-02-03T21:19:33Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > What I’m saying is that that’s not really possible. If I understand you correctly, what you’re saying is that the boss should close the office at his or her discretion, but have a policy of paying employees only under certain conditions. What would the conditions be?. How about “When the Federal Government decides to close, we will.”? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/96 "2016-02-03T21:24:36Z")
If, on a normal Friday afternoon, the staff is free to leave as soon as the last patient leaves, and they are not paid for any time beyond that, then it’s unreasonable of them to be expect to be paid for the afternoon at all. Monday was a federal snow day and the roads were so bad that exactly one patient showed up. That, IMO, entitles them to be paid for the day as a “snow day.” Had 30% or more of your patients showed up, then that would make me think that the roads were, indeed, passable. Bottom line is that you don’t want your patients or your staff risking their lives to make it into work. And realize that if they have younger children, it’s especially difficult to find child care on snow days when schools are closed. So, all in all, I think 8 hours of pay is quite reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/97 "2016-02-03T21:28:01Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > If, on a normal Friday afternoon, the staff is free to leave as soon as the last patient leaves, and they are not paid for any time beyond that, then it’s unreasonable of them to be expect to be paid for the afternoon at all. > . Only if they can also stay and be paid, but that wasnt an option. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/98 "2016-02-03T21:30:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How about “When the Federal Government decides to close, we will.”? :rolleyes: Still leaving it up to someone’s discretion. It’s just that it’s the discretion of person who makes the decision for the Feds, not the owner of that particular business. I don’t see how that’s any clearer or more consistent than “If I close the office , I’ll call you at 7am and I’ll pay you” . I might be stupid, but I just don’t see how one is clearer and more consistent than the other - especially when the person I was replying to said > [@](#): > > _Decide on the days off at your own discretion_, but not in how payment ties into those days off. (emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/99 "2016-02-03T21:38:18Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Still leaving it up to someone’s discretion. It’s just that it’s the discretion of person who makes the decision for the Feds, not the owner of that particular business. I don’t see how that’s any clearer or more consistent than “If I close the office , I’ll call you at 7am and I’ll pay you” . Because that’s why we elect those Officials and give them that authority. It’s entirely consistent. “_We are closed all Federal Holidays_” is consistent. _“We are closed whenever the fuck I feel like it”_ is not. You version does’t allow for: workers who leave before 7am, or when the office is closed midday, or what “I close the office” means- does it mean if there are no more clients scheduled? For a disaster? Read the Op and the replies, that’s exactly one point of contention. And, it also leads to discontent. “That cheap SOB made us come in even when everyone else was closed!” Or it leads to an employee getting in a accident- who will then be sure to sue. Finally- Full time workers have a reasonable expectation to a 40 hour week. They should not get their pay cut and be sent home on a whim. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971/100 "2016-02-03T21:39:30Z")
The problem with going entirely with the Feds is that we are 30 miles from DC and conditions can be different here. I’m satisfied with my current solution and so is the staff. I’m sorry about not putting the actual policy in the OP but I had to go find it. The problem with paying for Monday afternoon is that it sets a precedent; even if we are open, if the Federal government is closed or if you think you cannot make it in then I will pay you. Being inconsistent in this way is what has led to me now paying for bereavement time (if you pay once you pay always) and paying when the office is closed for Jewish holidays (same thing). That is why I put in writing in the office manual that if the office is open, we don’t pay for snow days but if I decide to close for weather we do. Also, it wasn’t as if I was trying to get them here in a blizzard. The snow had stopped for 36 hours by the time we opened and everything I saw was plowed including the office parking lot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snow-day-staff-payment-am-i-being-unreasonable/744971.md?page=6)