# Snowden Is A Hero: NSA Phone Capture And PRISM Are Blatantly Illegal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810 "2013-07-06T19:30:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/241 "2013-07-09T17:38:10Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > You’re right that I’m not a constitutional scholar, but marching into Verizon and demanding that they turn over all their records sure seems to violate the Fourth Amendment. Same with the PRISM program, where they had to put a tap on a data stream that belonged to a service provider (as is my understanding). A lot of things that seem a certain way aren’t. Either way, why do you think this program is illegal? What specifically about what they are doing do you feel is illegal? > [@CurtC](#): > > Nowadays it’s child’s play to unbreakably encrypt your data, and the Chinese government certainly isn’t capable of getting to it if you did that. No it’s not. If it were, there would be far fewer leaks and security breaches. Even if such a thing were possible, there is no evidence, and very little reason to think Snowden was capable of doing that. We don’t even know that the info he had on his laptop was in fact “unbreakably encrypted”. > [@CurtC](#): > > Snowden wasn’t highly formally educated, but he apparently was very knowledgeable in computer security systems. How do you know this? > [@CurtC](#): > > I think we can just about take it for granted that they couldn’t get the data unless he gave them the key, and I don’t think that is a realistic scenario. What are you basing this on? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/242 "2013-07-09T17:57:41Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Then how about you read something before you draw a conclusion. How about you tell me what conclusion **CurtC** has drawn? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/243 "2013-07-09T18:00:18Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > > [@CurtC](#): > > > > Nowadays it’s child’s play to unbreakably encrypt your data… > > No it’s not. If it were, there would be far fewer leaks and security breaches. It is child’s play to unbreakably encrypt your data. The data on my laptop is strongly encrypted - the weakness is the relatively short passcode that I’ve used. But if I were carrying around state secrets, I would use a strong passcode that no government in the world can break. > [@](#): > > Even if such a thing were possible, there is no evidence, and very little reason to think Snowden was capable of doing that. He said he was an “infrastructure analyst.” According to the NY Times, “an infrastructure analyst at the N.S.A., like a burglar casing an apartment building, looks for new ways to break into Internet and telephone traffic around the world.” The way he has described giving encrypted data to third parties, with encryption keys delivered to them in the case of his unavailability, is a sure sign that he knew what he was doing in regards to computer security. It sure seems like he was a computer hacker for hire. But those skills are way beyond what’s necessary for strong encryption. My 84-year-old mother could do it. To doubt that a young tech-savvy person could lock his data, and would do so in this case, is naive. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/244 "2013-07-09T18:07:58Z")
OK, so the government developed and deployed a spying program on it’s own citizens in defiance of the law. Snowden ALSO broke the law by leaking classified documents that uncovered the government’s illegal program. Snowden is in some other country trying to seek asylum from the U.S government who is mightily anxious to see him imprisoned. And the people responsible for the ILLEGAL domestic spying program are… Awaiting trial for their wrong doing? Being interrogated? Fired from their positions? Being held accountable IN ANY MOTHER EFFING WAY? Nope. Yeah, this sounds about how we do things here. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/245 "2013-07-09T18:25:48Z")
What are you basing the assertion that the spying program is illegal on? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/246 "2013-07-09T18:32:56Z")
It clearly went beyond what was being allowed by our elected leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/247 "2013-07-09T18:35:09Z")
Because a New York Times op-ed said so? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/248 "2013-07-09T18:36:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Because a New York Times op-ed said so? Is it not evident in what was written? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/249 "2013-07-09T18:43:16Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > How about you tell me what conclusion **CurtC** has drawn? 1. That people are basing their opinions on unstated assumptions 2. the point of civil disobedience is to be punished. 3. The collection of metadata and internet data is illegal 4. If he released in a less illegal way, it would have never gotten out, and Snowden would have been arrested. That’s a good start. Either way, I am not sure why you are so desirous to defend the guy given he is perfectly capable of defending himself. > [@CurtC](#): > > It is child’s play to unbreakably encrypt your data. The data on my laptop is strongly encrypted - the weakness is the relatively short passcode that I’ve used. But if I were carrying around state secrets, I would use a strong passcode that no government in the world can break. Cite? Honestly, no expert would ever say something with that confidence given how many times “unbreakable” encryption has been broken. Especially given that you have no idea what a first world government is capable of, nor would the need to necessarily break the encryption to access the information. Do you honestly think the Chinese government copied his laptops, then saw they were encrypted, then gave up because there NO WAY they could ever access the information? > [@CurtC](#): > > He said he was an “infrastructure analyst.” According to the NY Times, “an infrastructure analyst at the N.S.A., like a burglar casing an apartment building, looks for new ways to break into Internet and telephone traffic around the world.” He has lied about thousand things. What makes you so confident he was good at what he did beyond his supposed job title? > [@CurtC](#): > > The way he has described giving encrypted data to third parties, with encryption keys delivered to them in the case of his unavailability, is a sure sign that he knew what he was doing in regards to computer security. It sure seems like he was a computer hacker for hire. Again, why do you believe this guy? He lied to get his job, didn’t seem to finish anything schooling he had, and was dumb enough to think Hong Kong would allow him to stay there while the US petitioned to have him returned. This is just not a smart and thoughtful guy. More importantly, if you buy his claim that he main goal is to let the people know what is going on, why isn’t he releasing the info himself? Why is he encrypting data and giving it to third parties? Seems more like he wants to hold the government hostage, not enlighten the public. > [@Kinthalis](#): > > OK, so the government developed and deployed a spying program on it’s own citizens in defiance of the law. It was not in defiance of it’s own laws. > [@Kinthalis](#): > > And the people responsible for the ILLEGAL domestic spying program are… Awaiting trial for their wrong doing? Being interrogated? Fired from their positions? Being held accountable IN ANY MOTHER EFFING WAY? It has not been demonstrated they did anything illegal. What exactly would they be arrested for? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/250 "2013-07-09T18:54:06Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > 1. That people are basing their opinions on unstated assumptions > 2. the point of civil disobedience is to be punished. > 3. The collection of metadata and internet data is illegal > 4. If he released in a less illegal way, it would have never gotten out, and Snowden would have been arrested. Do you not know what a conclusion is? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/251 "2013-07-09T18:58:51Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Do you not know what a conclusion is? I do, do you? How is collection of metadata is illegal not a conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/252 "2013-07-09T19:02:43Z")
Just never mind. Anyway what the heck are all you guys actually reading? I see in this thread completely opposite claims about the facts of the case (not judgments, simply the facts) and so far, almost no links. Where are people getting information like: Snowden is an encryption expert Snowden knows shit about encryption Snowden has released the information carefully Snowden has been haphazard about releasing the information China can read our encrypted stuff Nobody can read our encrypted stuff Snowden is highly educated Snowden lied about his education Snowden expected a cushy life afterwards Snowden did not expect a cushy life afterwards etc? His heroism or non-heroism will turn directly on answers to questions like these, and others, so it’s almost pointless to discuss it till things like this are settled. If they can’t be settled, the heroism question can’t be settled either. (Unless you rely on axioms like “Heroes never flee” but you shouldn’t do that.) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/253 "2013-07-09T19:03:45Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I do, do you? How is collection of metadata is illegal not a conclusion? You can’t just look at a sentence and tell whether it’s a conclusion or not. Anyway never mind, see prior post for much more interesting questions. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/254 "2013-07-09T19:16:45Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Where are people getting information like: > > Snowden is an encryption expert It’s an (somewhat understandable) assumption based on his position. > [@Frylock](#): > > Snowden knows shit about encryption See above. > [@Frylock](#): > > Snowden has released the information carefully There is zero evidence that this is true. Either way, this and the next question are subjective. > [@Frylock](#): > > Snowden has been haphazard about releasing the information See above. > [@Frylock](#): > > China can read our encrypted stuff China routinely hacks private anf government computers, accessing encrypted data. > [@Frylock](#): > > Nobody can read our encrypted stuff Nobody with any kind of expertise on the matter can or would say that. > [@Frylock](#): > > Snowden is highly educated No one says he is highly educated. > [@Frylock](#): > > Snowden lied about his education Established [fact](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/20/1217658/-Surprise-Mr-Snowden-lied-to-get-his-jobs). He lied about both his education and work history on a number of occasions. > [@Frylock](#): > > Snowden expected a cushy life afterwards He is quoted as saying he expected to be given asylum in HK while fighting the US government in court. You can determine for yourself whether that would allow him to have a cushy life. It certainly meant he didn’t expect to be willingly sacrificing his freedom or modern conveniences. > [@Frylock](#): > > Snowden did not expect a cushy life afterwards They assume disagee about what a cushy life is. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/255 "2013-07-09T19:35:41Z")
Thanks for those answers, **Brickbacon**. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/256 "2013-07-09T19:43:12Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Snowden is an encryption expert > Snowden knows shit about encryption He worked at the NSA, in a somewhat technical job, and the tools to do strong encryption are widely available to even non-technical people. Plus, he has made claims about how he’s distributed cypher-data to other sources, to be decrypted in case of his unavailability. This description is indicative that he has more than a passing knowledge of these techniques. But the bottom-line is that you don’t need to be an expert nowadays. > [@](#): > > China can read our encrypted stuff > Nobody can read our encrypted stuff China can attempt to get our encrypted stuff through other means, such as compromised passwords, moles, multi-user systems with poor security, etc. However, if I’m storing data with me as the only person who needs access to it, it’s every bit as secure as the strength of my password. > [@](#): > > Snowden expected a cushy life afterwards > Snowden did not expect a cushy life afterwards These questions do have a strong bearing on how you view his actions. My assumption has been that he willingly consigned himself to being miserably in exile for an indeterminate time. Others here have argued otherwise, but I’m not swayed too much by their arguments, at least not yet. I’m open-minded about it, but I just don’t see him thinking he’d have a cushy lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/257 "2013-07-09T19:55:16Z")
[Here](http://www.salon.com/2013/07/09/11_disturbing_things_snowden_has_taught_us_so_far_partner/) is an article detailing 11 of Snowden’s revelations (where “revelation” is used in a loose sense since a lot of it is stuff I’m sure everybody knows everybody knows though always unofficially). A lot of it seems to have much more to do with international intrigue than domestic surveillance. I’m not sure what the ideology is that would drive these kinds of disclosures. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/258 "2013-07-09T22:30:57Z")
No less a figure than Daniel Ellsberg has weighed in on whether or not Snowden should have flown the country. His call: [Snowden did the right thing.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html) Because, among other things: > [@](#): > > I hope Snowden’s revelations will spark a movement to rescue our democracy, but he could not be part of that movement had he stayed here. There is zero chance that he would be allowed out on bail if he returned now and close to no chance that, had he not left the country, he would have been granted bail. Instead, he would be in a prison cell like Bradley Manning, incommunicado. Ellsberg also points out that the prospect of being tortured like Bradley Manning was (and it’s not just me, it’s the UN that said Manning was tortured) would be grounds for being granted political asylum in most countries … except of course for American bullying and bribing to keep them from doing so. You naysayers should read Ellsberg’s full op-ed piece. It’ll save me the trouble of bringing up his points one by one. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/259 "2013-07-09T23:16:14Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Is it not evident in what was written? Well, no. What’s written is the opinion of a couple of people (who I presume are journalists) and which is focused on a single section of a single law. They don’t seem to realize that the activity may be authorized under another statute, or by case law. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/260 "2013-07-09T23:29:38Z")
[Glenn Greenwald talking about Snowden.](http://youtu.be/Uulv4ve6RJ8?t=23m5s) 23:05-30:30, although I don’t think there’s anything too new. Mostly about how Greenwald thought Snowden was going to be much older before his first meeting since Snowden told him he knew he was going to be killed, sent to prison, or made a fugitive, and his motivations. As an aside, watching Greenwald go from a dissident blogger all those years ago to mainstream newsman calling for his arrest has been pretty fun. Like watching a garage band hit it big. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810.md?page=14)