# Snowden Is A Hero: NSA Phone Capture And PRISM Are Blatantly Illegal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810 "2013-07-06T19:30:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/21 "2013-07-06T21:39:33Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Of course he broke the law - because the laws are set up in such a way that **the American government is an adversary of its people.**. That point can’t be stressed enough. By comparison, anything “bad” Snowden might have done is small potatoes. When the government is betraying the people, who cares who’s betraying the government? Must have your priorities right. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/22 "2013-07-06T21:41:58Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > He’s a brave man who did the right thing for the good of all Americans, not all your nattering about legalities and technicalities can change that. You can’t say he shouldn’t be arrested and then complain about people talking about legalities. It’s a legal question. > [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > Does it really matter if he’s a deluded fool, or a brave man, or a guy you’d want to have a beer with, or a raging asshole? Does it even matter _why_ he decided to release the classified documents? Not especially. It’s sort of interesting but not very important, and it’s annoying that it seems to be overwhelming discussion of these programs. > [@](#): > > The core issue is whether or not whistleblowers should be encouraged, or if they should be stopped. There’s that, too, but I don’t think many people are really opposed to whistleblowing. One of the relevant issues here (legally and perhaps ethically) is that to get whistleblower protection you have to go about things in a certain way. I don’t think Snowden did that. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/23 "2013-07-06T21:42:00Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > who cares who’s betraying the government? People who live here and care about national security? I can decide for myself how to rank what I care about and my “priorities” but thanks for looking out for me :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/24 "2013-07-06T21:52:07Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I can decide for myself how to rank what I care about and my “priorities” but thanks for looking out for me :rolleyes: You’re welcome 😉 . Sometimes people living in democracies might lose track of what really matters when you want to keep living in a free society where the government is accountable to the people. It’s my pleasure to help. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/25 "2013-07-06T21:56:26Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Like that would work. > > Seriously, I don’t care about his personality or character. He disclosed informations that every citizen should have known. He did the right thing because the government had done the wrong thing. There should be more people like him, not less. Doesn’t matter if he’s self-agrandizing or whatever, the result is largely positive. > > As for being a coward for not facing charges? I know that plenty of people here support “civil desobedience” where you break the law for the good cause, and then bravely go to jail or whatever as a result. I’m not particularly interested in that approach. Family history, maybe, whatever. You broke the law for the good cause and you can get away with it? Then you try to get away with it. The fact that what the NSA did was illegal is proof that the majority of the government opposes it. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/26 "2013-07-06T21:58:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Snowden broke the law whether these programs are illegal or not. I think that’s getting things the wrong way around: those programs are illegal, whether Snowden broke the law (is a narcissistic right-wing raging asshole etc.) or not. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/27 "2013-07-06T22:00:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You can’t say he shouldn’t be arrested and then complain about people talking about legalities. It’s a legal question. You sound like Bricker. It’s a matter of morality and ethics as well. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/28 "2013-07-06T22:02:53Z")
Concerning legalities and technicalities, I take **Evil Captor** to be advocating for prosecutorial discretion. He’s not interested in technical and legal discussions because he is more interested in the moral question. As for Snowden, literally the only thing I know about him is “He’s that guy who released that stuff and went to Hong Kong.” What else do we know about him that’s leading to the view that he’s a self-aggrandizing, deluded narcissistic fool? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/29 "2013-07-06T22:03:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The fact that what the NSA did was illegal is proof that the majority of the government opposes it. The majority of government doesn’t play a role. Congress doesn’t know the details of what the NSA is doing. The intelligence committee only vaguely knows the details, essentially given token information so that politicians can say “we’ve been keeping Congress advised of this program”, and no one else actually involved in intelligence knows anything. So what does it matter if the rest of the government isn’t comfortable with it if there’s no way for them to know what’s going on or change anything? We’ve hidden it behind such a barrier of secrecy that whistleblowers are the only option. And yet we treat the whistleblowers like an enemy of the people when they try to tell the people what’s being done to them in their name. Which plays perfectly into the hands of the people who want to keep us a perpetual security state. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/30 "2013-07-06T22:03:54Z")
Are we taking it as given that **Evil Captor** is right that the program is illegal? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/31 "2013-07-06T22:04:38Z")
He couldn’t find any other way to break up with his girlfriend. OK, I stole that from Bill Maher. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/32 "2013-07-06T22:17:42Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > You sound like Bricker. It’s a matter of morality and ethics as well. Yes, those are factors as well. First you figure out if the law was broken - which it almost unquestionably was - then if he shouldn’t be charged for legal and moral reasons. Since this is about classified material, I’m not sure he has any whistleblower protections legally. And as far as I know there’s no evidence he tried to go about this in a way that would have minimized the security breach (like going to anyone in Congress who had concerns about these programs). Then you think about what might happen if a guy who has access to classified material is allowed to leak things of his own discretion and walk away because the program was bad. You don’t have to support PRISM to realize that could create some real problems. ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/33 "2013-07-06T22:40:06Z")
I dunno, the Obama adminstration’s pretty tough when it comes to security issues, considering the fact that [he’s charged more people under the Espionage Act than all previous presidents combined](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/22/edward_snowden_is_eighth_person_obama_has_pursued_under_espionage_act.html). Perhaps Snowden didn’t want to end up like [Bradley Manning](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un). Seems pretty rational to run given that he’s already given up a six figure job and condo in Hawaii in revealing all this stuff… Btw, when I think about these disclosures, I can’t help but think about things like J Edgar Hoover’s FBI bugging MLK and others, [COINTELPRO](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO), what was discovered by the [Church Comittee](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee), etc etc ---
**Author:** ![Psychopants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Psychopants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psychopants)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/34 "2013-07-06T22:51:15Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > People who live here and care about national security? > > I can decide for myself how to rank what I care about and my “priorities” but thanks for looking out for me :rolleyes: Totally agree. And I’m willing to be five bucks that there is a lot more to this story. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/35 "2013-07-06T22:55:46Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > Perhaps Snowden didn’t want to end up like [Bradley Manning](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un). Not breaking the law would have done the trick. ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/36 "2013-07-06T23:01:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Not breaking the law would have done the trick. Not saying that Snowden’s on the same level, but Mandela and MLK broke the law too. In fact, Mandela wasn’t taken off the US terror list until [2008](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7484517.stm). Just because something is legal does not mean it is just and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/37 "2013-07-06T23:02:59Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > Not saying that Snowden’s on the same level, but Mandela and MLK broke the law too. MLK & Mandela also neglected to flee to China. Or, you know, give classified security documents to other nations. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/38 "2013-07-06T23:07:02Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > MLK & Mandela also neglected to flee to China. Or, you know, give classified security documents to other nations. Refresh my memory. How long did Mandela spend in a South African prison? ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/39 "2013-07-06T23:13:31Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > MLK & Mandela also neglected to flee to China. Or, you know, give classified security documents to other nations. Had Snowden stayed, he just may be in solitary right now. Had he gone to a friendly, democratic European country, he just may be in solitary right now. He’s done more than bitch about civil liberties to friends and on the internet. He could have stayed in his cushy job and did nothing. He could have quietly sold the info to interested countries. Instead, he went to the press. I think that takes guts knowing what we know about how the US operates in this post 9/11 world. Perhaps the prospect of a lifetime in prison was too much. I don’t fault him for his actions. Not sure I would call him a hero, but he did the American public a service (whether they realize it or not), and he did it at considerable cost. Whatever his shortcomings are should not detract from the message… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/40 "2013-07-06T23:24:19Z")
Someone convince me that he had to break the law in order to blow the whistle on this. Until then, no hero status for him! Also, heroes don’t usually flee to China. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810.md?page=3)