# Snowden Is A Hero: NSA Phone Capture And PRISM Are Blatantly Illegal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810 "2013-07-06T19:30:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/61 "2013-07-07T00:40:24Z")
I don’t know whether Snowden is a heroic fighter for right and justice or not. But I can’t understand the point some of you are trying to make, that somehow his attempts not to be imprisoned disqualify him from heroic status. I can’t see how that follows. “I believe this is wrong, and I will bring it to light so people will know the wrong thing. I’m going to lose everything I have for doing so, but I’m willing to pay that price. Meanwhile, I don’t want to go to prison, and I don’t think I should, so I’m going to try to prevent _that_ from happening as well.” Seems perfectly compatible with heroism to me. Remember in Snowden’s story, the government plays the role of the _bad guys_. A hero is not required to _allow the bad guys to put him in prison_. He’s allowed to try to avoid that. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/62 "2013-07-07T00:42:42Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > I meant anything that could really compromise our security. A Scotsman once told me the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/63 "2013-07-07T00:44:22Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I don’t know whether Snowden is a heroic fighter for right and justice or not. But I can’t understand the point some of you are trying to make, that somehow his attempts not to be imprisoned disqualify him from heroic status. I can’t see how that follows. “I believe this is wrong, and I will bring it to light so people will know the wrong thing. I’m going to lose everything I have for doing so, but I’m willing to pay that price. Meanwhile, I don’t want to go to prison, and I don’t think I should, so I’m going to try to prevent _that_ from happening as well.” Seems perfectly compatible with heroism to me. > > Remember in Snowden’s story, the government plays the role of the _bad guys_. A hero is not required to _allow the bad guys to put him in prison_. He’s allowed to try to avoid that. Well yes…it’s right there in the Hollywood standard plots guide that it’s allowed. Sadly, the government isn’t a signatory to this landmark ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/64 "2013-07-07T00:46:30Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Remember in Snowden’s story, the government plays the role of the _bad guys_. A hero is not required to _allow the bad guys to put him in prison_. He’s allowed to try to avoid that. In the Hollywood version, perhaps. In the real world, it’s a lot more complicated than that and running off to foreign lands not especially friendly to the US and using classified intel as your bargaining chip disqualifies you from “hero”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/65 "2013-07-07T00:47:57Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > Why does it matter that he fled to China?. Because the OP is claiming he is a “hero”. Heroes don’t flee. MLK didn’t break the law and then run across the border to Mexico. Going to jail was part of the whole civil disobedience thing and what makes people like him actual heroes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/66 "2013-07-07T00:53:11Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > Why does it matter that he fled to China? It does make you roll your eyes a little bit that Snowden, just like Julian Assange, is outraged by abuses of power and a lack of freedom and transparency in the U.S. and Europe and then immediately got himself involved with countries that are less democratic, treat their citizens worse, and human rights like free speech or freedom of the press get less respect or don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/67 "2013-07-07T00:55:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act protects people who are passing information on to the proper enforcement agencies - Congress or the Department of Justice. Drake was giving classified information to a newspaper reporter. Snowden would have been better off if he had learned from Drake’s example. He went to congress first. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/68 "2013-07-07T00:57:13Z")
The implication being the people who want his head on a platter would instead be in line to slobber his knob with the rest of the libs if only he would stick around and be thrown into a brig. You know, like they called Manning a hero. Pull the other one. ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/69 "2013-07-07T00:58:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It does make you roll your eyes a little bit that Snowden, just like Julian Assange, is outraged by abuses of power and a lack of freedom and transparency in the U.S. and Europe and then immediately got himself involved with countries that are less democratic, treat their citizens worse, and human rights like free speech or freedom of the press get less respect or don’t exist. If you make the decision to run, why would you run to a country that would extradite you with the quickness? That’s just as good as not running at all. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/70 "2013-07-07T01:08:37Z")
> [@XT](#): > > He did so in a manner that was clearly treasonous, since, again, he stole EXTRA stuff he could use to bargain with other countries to stay out of the authorities hands. This is news to me. Could you point me to a cite? > [@John Mace](#): > > Because the OP is claiming he is a “hero”. Heroes don’t flee. MLK didn’t break the law and then run across the border to Mexico. Going to jail was part of the whole civil disobedience thing and what makes people like him actual heroes. > [@Marley23](#): > > It does make you roll your eyes a little bit that Snowden, just like Julian Assange, is outraged by abuses of power and a lack of freedom and transparency in the U.S. and Europe and then immediately got himself involved with countries that are less democratic, treat their citizens worse, and human rights like free speech or freedom of the press get less respect or don’t exist. Aha. Well, like I said earlier, making him into a hero (or a villain) shouldn’t be the focus (and I don’t think he’s either), so I’ll have to disagree with the OP on that point. It is…ironic? that Snowden has to rely on seeking asylum in countries that are somewhat at odds with the US, and with questionable politics regarding freedoms and rights (though he did initially want to go to Iceland). And after the Bolivian president’s plane fiasco, it seems Latin American countries have come to his rescue, possibly as an “F you” to the US. Which is fine. But to those who think he should have stayed: maybe [Bradley Manning’s mistreatment](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un) turned him off to the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Psychopants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Psychopants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psychopants)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/71 "2013-07-07T01:29:15Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > AFAIK, Snowden has only given documents to the Guardian and the Washington Post – that is, only to respectable press organizations. Those organizations then decided, with Snowden’s help, what to release to the public. I’ve seen no evidence that he’s provided NSA documents to foreign governments, and certainly no evidence he’s “trying to hold the US hostage by threatening to release more security secrets.” > > Why does it matter that he fled to China? Do you have a cite that he gave or sold classified security documents to foreign governments? > > I’m starting to think you’re talking about a different Snowden. Alleging something to the Chinese press without documentation (as your previous links say) does not equate to selling our security for his freedom. First. Apologies for quoting the whole post, but I’m on an ipad and limited editing. Second, are you kidding? Do you really believe that the Chinese, and now the russians, are just gracious hosts and didn’t take everything he had? Seriously? He has no more leverage. Whatever he had to share/barter/sell is now in the hands of two countries with which we have marginally neutral relationships. I would have considered giving him benefit of the doubt if he had fled to - oh, I don’t know - any of a dozen other countries. Like Switzerland, for example. Or Belgium. Or Canada. This whole thing has a bad smell to me. But I am biased, since I am in the intel community. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/72 "2013-07-07T01:29:47Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > In the Hollywood version, perhaps. In the real world, it’s a lot more complicated than that and running off to foreign lands not especially friendly to the US and using classified intel as your bargaining chip disqualifies you from “hero”. I am talking specifically about the argument that has been made several times in this thread that simply trying to avoid prison already shows he can’t be a “hero.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/73 "2013-07-07T01:31:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Because the OP is claiming he is a “hero”. Heroes don’t flee. This is just not true. For example, a soldier who puts his life on the line so his comrades can escape capture, _and then escapes capture himself_, is for all that a hero. The thing about “fleeing” is simply a red herring. It’s neither true nor relevant. ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/74 "2013-07-07T01:38:39Z")
> [@Psychopants](#): > > I would have considered giving him benefit of the doubt if he had fled to - oh, I don’t know - any of a dozen other countries. Like Switzerland, for example. Or Belgium. Or Canada. Again, he might as well not fled at all… ---
**Author:** ![Psychopants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Psychopants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psychopants)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/75 "2013-07-07T01:48:39Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > Again, he might as well not fled at all… Yes. My point, exactly. He is a coward and a traitor. ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/76 "2013-07-07T01:57:53Z")
> [@Psychopants](#): > > Yes. My point, exactly. He is a coward and a traitor. Coward? No Takes some degree of guts to leave behind a cushy life in Hawaii making six figures, while incurring the wrath of the world’s most powerful country. I wouldn’t have done that… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/77 "2013-07-07T02:08:50Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > If you make the decision to run, why would you run to a country that would extradite you with the quickness? That’s just as good as not running at all. I get the sense you just don’t want to deal with this question. I already answered this and I already said running was the wrong decision. I guess your answer is “his principles are not as important as avoiding prosecution,” and that kind of proves my point. > [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > It is…ironic? that Snowden has to rely on seeking asylum in countries that are somewhat at odds with the US, and with questionable politics regarding freedoms and rights (though he did initially want to go to Iceland). It’s his choice, so it’s not ironic. It’s hypocritical. If you’re committed to freedoms and an open society, I think you’d be repulsed by the idea of being a prop for the ruling party in China, Putin, Correa, or Maduro. > [@Frylock](#): > > This is just not true. For example, a soldier who puts his life on the line so his comrades can escape capture, _and then escapes capture himself_, is for all that a hero. > > The thing about “fleeing” is simply a red herring. It’s neither true nor relevant. He’s not fleeing war or death, he’s fleeing prosecution. And you’ll remember that a week or two ago he said he didn’t fear justice because he knew he hadn’t done anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Psychopants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Psychopants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psychopants)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/78 "2013-07-07T02:09:19Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > Coward? No > > Takes some degree of guts to leave behind a cushy life in Hawaii making six figures, while incurring the wrath of the world’s most powerful country. I wouldn’t have done that… Living in Hawaii sounds a lot more glamorous than it really is. I know this from personal experience. And six figures was _barely_ six figures. Not exactly high on the hog. ---
**Author:** ![Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stately_Greek_Automaton)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/79 "2013-07-07T02:15:24Z")
> [@Psychopants](#): > > Yes. My point, exactly. He is a coward and a traitor. Do you feel we would be better or worse off without him leaking this information? If you were in his place, with the information he had in hand, would you release it? If so, would you smile and take your comeuppance? At the end of the day, yeah. He did something illegal. However, the law isn’t immutable and it can be subject to change. It’s also not the ultimate determination whether something is or isn’t just. Regardless, the whole Edward Snowden show seems to be detracting from the note important issue and debate of whether or not the government should be collecting all this info in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/80 "2013-07-07T02:15:34Z")
> [@Psychopants](#): > > And six figures was _barely_ six figures. Not exactly high on the hog. This is daft. I don’t know what it costs to live in Hawaii, but a guy in his mid to late 20s making $100,000 to $200,000 a year is doing exceptionally well by any standard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810.md?page=5)