# Snowden Is A Hero: NSA Phone Capture And PRISM Are Blatantly Illegal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810 "2013-07-06T19:30:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/81 "2013-07-07T02:16:44Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > Coward? No Cowards flee. Coward? Yes. It’s pretty much a tautology. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/82 "2013-07-07T02:18:43Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Significantly longer than Snowden is willing to stay in a US prison for his beliefs. Especially while he has classified security intel to trade away and compromise my safety for the benefit of his freedom. > > What a hero! Let me refresh your memory: 27 years is how long Nelson Mandela spent in prison. I cannot blame anyone for wanting to avoid spending 27 years in prison for doing the right thing, the good thing. This merely establishes to me that Snowden is sane. It DEFINITELY does not disqualify him from being a hero. My, you have high standards! Or something. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/83 "2013-07-07T02:21:17Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Let me refresh your memory: 27 years is how long Nelson Mandela spent in prison. I cannot blame anyone for wanting to avoid spending 27 years in prison for doing the right thing, the good thing. This merely establishes to me that Snowden is sane. It DEFINITELY does not disqualify him from being a hero. > > My, you have high standards! Or something. Or, you have low standards. You have failed to convince us that he had other alternatives that didn’t involve breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![Psychopants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Psychopants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psychopants)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/84 "2013-07-07T02:29:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is daft. I don’t know what it costs to live in Hawaii, but a guy in his mid to late 20s making $100,000 to $200,000 a year is doing exceptionally well by any standard. Nope. Not in the community he was part of. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/85 "2013-07-07T02:31:04Z")
I don’t blame anyone who wants to avoid a long prison term either. Most of us duck those by not breaking the law. On the other hand if you stand up and say you have to break the law to follow your conscience and you then decide to flee the consequences because they look unpleasant - which you knew they would be before you started - it does imply you don’t have the courage of your conviction. People around the world face worse outcomes in the name of justice every day. Most of them don’t flee to China to avoid punishment. > [@Psychopants](#): > > Nope. Not in the community he was part of. That wasn’t the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/86 "2013-07-07T02:31:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is daft. I don’t know what it costs to live in Hawaii, but a guy in his mid to late 20s making $100,000 to $200,000 a year is doing exceptionally well by any standard. Hm. According to [a cost-of-living calculator at CNN](http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/), $150,000 is equivalent to about $80,000 in my neck of the woods. ($100,000 is around $55,000.) That’s good, but it’s not eyes-jumping-out-of—one’s-head incredible. ---
**Author:** ![Psychopants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Psychopants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psychopants)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/87 "2013-07-07T02:31:57Z")
> [@Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](#): > > Do you feel we would be better or worse off without him leaking this information? If you were in his place, with the information he had in hand, would you release it? If so, would you smile and take your comeuppance? > > At the end of the day, yeah. He did something illegal. However, the law isn’t immutable and it can be subject to change. It’s also not the ultimate determination whether something is or isn’t just. Regardless, the whole Edward Snowden show seems to be detracting from the note important issue and debate of whether or not the government should be collecting all this info in the first place. I have been in his position. I refrained from releasing information. I am more confident in the need to support a bigger picture. And, hypothetically, yes. I would face the music. ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/88 "2013-07-07T02:32:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I get the sense you just don’t want to deal with this question. I already answered this and I already said running was the wrong decision. I guess your answer is “his principles are not as important as avoiding prosecution,” and that kind of proves my point. I am not saying it was the right thing to, or the wrong thing to do. Only that it was the _rational_ thing to do. Does it take more balls to sit tight and wait to be arrested? Yes If one decides that one does not have the balls to do this, and decides to run instead, would it be stupid to run to a friendly country? Why, yes it would ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/89 "2013-07-07T02:35:14Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > I am not saying it was the right thing to, or the wrong thing to do. Only that it was the _rational_ thing to do. When people flatly contradict their own principles, they usually do it because it’s the rational thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/90 "2013-07-07T02:35:31Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > My, you have high standards! Or something. Sorry I don’t call every coward a hero. Maybe you should raise your bar. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/91 "2013-07-07T02:39:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He’s not fleeing war or death, he’s fleeing prosecution. And you’ll remember that a week or two ago he said he didn’t fear justice because he knew he hadn’t done anything wrong. This is just… I don’t know what happens to people’s brains when national security is the topic. People just flip out and stop putting thoughts together straight. (Except me. I seem to be literally the only exception in all the world, what amazing luck.) Look. I don’t know if Snowden is a horrible coward or a great hero. I only know like two facts about him. But your argument here isn’t just a bad one. It literally makes no sense. You’re not putting thoughts together in order. It’s kind of an unkind sounding thing for me to say but I know several of the posters in this thread (including you) to be capable of much better than this. Let me explain. We _all know_ that justice and prosecution are not equal. It makes literally no sense for you to argue that his fear of _prosecution_ equals a fear of _justice_. Your reasoning here is of the “not even wrong” variety. It’s just badly disconnected. In any other context you’d see this _immediately_. Something in this particular topic just makes obvious things stop seeming obvious for some reason. Another point: It doesn’t matter if he’s fleeing war or death, since my argument was just that _fleeing does not equate to cowardice_. My only point–the obvious point I was obviously making–was that the significance of flight depends on the context. It is not fair simply to say “heroes don’t flee.” Sometimes, they do. You have to do a lot more to show that in this particular case, this particular flight is a sign of cowardice. Just take a step back, forget that national security is the topic here and just look at the form of the arguments you’re making. They’re bad. They’re super bad. They’re exactly the kind of instances of “reasoning” that makes some people very _useful_ to certain other people, if you catch my drift. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/92 "2013-07-07T02:43:17Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Look. I don’t know if Snowden is a horrible coward or a great hero. Then why are you posting in this thread? This thread is not about whether he did the right thing or the wrong thing. It’s about whether he is a hero or not. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/93 "2013-07-07T02:49:32Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > …not all your nattering about legalities and technicalities can change that. People who think a great deal like you are responsible for the thing you believe to be a great injustice. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/94 "2013-07-07T02:51:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Then why are you posting in this thread? This thread is not about whether he did the right thing or the wrong thing. It’s about whether he is a hero or not. Another example. It is _clear_ why I am posting and _clear_ how it is related to the topic of heroism. I am posting to point out that one of the arguments that he is not a hero is blatantly, dumbfoundingly, obviously invalid. Not only is this extremely clear, your post contains _another_ bizarre failure. Heroism and morality are inherently connected. A third oddity: I haven’t said even one word about whether he did “the right thing” or “the wrong thing.” Look, this isn’t subtle. A number has been done on your mental capacities here. I’m sorry to be blunt, but there it is. I’m not saying anything about your inherent abilities, in fact my point rests on the known fact that your inherent capacity for rationality is far above average. ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/95 "2013-07-07T02:55:26Z")
People usually come to the conclusion first and then marshal the supporting evidence to back up that conclusion. So how one feels about Snowden will be influenced to some degree by how one feels about what he did. Is what the NSA is doing ok? Is leaking ever ok? If you answer yes and no, respectively than Snowden is traitor and a coward. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/96 "2013-07-07T03:00:51Z")
Is giving over US national security secrets to other nations in the name of “protecting the American people” and then allowing yourself to be used as a puppet by multiple nations to taunt the US okay? I say “no” but some people think that’s heroic. Takes all kinds. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/97 "2013-07-07T03:03:46Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > People usually come to the conclusion first and then marshal the supporting evidence to back up that conclusion. So how one feels about Snowden will be influenced to some degree by how one feels about what he did. Is what the NSA is doing ok? Is leaking ever ok? If you answer yes and no, respectively than Snowden is traitor and a coward. What happens if my answers are “definitely not” and “absolutely,” respectively, and I nonetheless think that Mr. Snowden is probably a traitor and certainly not a hero? ---
**Author:** ![NonaSequitur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f1d935/32.png) [@NonaSequitur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NonaSequitur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/98 "2013-07-07T03:13:50Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > What happens if my answers are “definitely not” and “absolutely,” respectively, and I nonetheless think that Mr. Snowden is probably a traitor and certainly not a hero? I dunno, what happens? Nah for real, I’d answer the two questions in an identical fashion. Yet, I don’t view Snowden in such black and white terms. I wouldn’t call him a hero. Definitely wouldn’t call him a coward. I’d say he did an admirable thing. And I definitely don’t want to throw the book at him. I suspect people’s views of him will moderate with time. Look at Daniel Ellsberg, is he a traitor? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/99 "2013-07-07T03:35:46Z")
> [@NonaSequitur](#): > > I suspect people’s views of him will moderate with time. Look at Daniel Ellsberg, is he a traitor? He didn’t go peddling the papers to our enemies in exchange for asylum. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/100 "2013-07-07T03:50:07Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I don’t know what happens to people’s brains when national security is the topic. People just flip out and stop putting thoughts together straight. (Except me. I seem to be literally the only exception in all the world, what amazing luck.) I do not have nearly enough :rolleyes:. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810.md?page=6)