# Snowden Is A Hero: NSA Phone Capture And PRISM Are Blatantly Illegal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810 "2013-07-06T19:30:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/121 "2013-07-07T16:58:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Treason is “the right thing”? I don’t think this rises to the level of treason. He’d have to give specific information directly to our enemies. This is the same flawed analysis that those used to claim the Valerie Plame leaker was guilty of treason. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/122 "2013-07-07T17:00:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think this rises to the level of treason. He’d have to give specific information directly to our enemies. This is the same flawed analysis that those used to claim the Valerie Plame leaker was guilty of treason. I have a sneaking suspicion that there’s a good deal of overlap between those people and the people calling Snowden a hero. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/123 "2013-07-07T17:10:26Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Look, I’m not saying he shouldn’t be prosecuted for something like unauthorized distribution of government property. Organizations can’t operate without certain rules. But _espionage_? Really? For leaking to credentialed and experienced members of the press? Look up the definition of espionage. > [@](#): > > This isn’t squat. I don’t agree. > [@](#): > > Snowden has taken his punishment: it’s called exile. Typically when you break the law you don’t get to choose your own punishment. That’s not quite how the system works. > [@](#): > > What he hasn’t done is risk torture like Manning experienced or 20 years in a Super Max facility at best. If the Snowden had the option of being thrown in a low security prison for 5 years, that would be different. Oh, now I get it- he isn’t fleeing punishment, he’s only fleeing punishment because he decided the punishment is too harsh. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Stop having impossible standards, please. We’ve already discussed several people who lived up to those standards. Snowden’s looking at a very harsh punishment, but a lot of people face worse without the means to flee to other countries and without the protection of media attention. Then there’s the minor matter of the way the countries he wants help from don’t live up to the principles he says are so important to him. Has he said anything about the way Russia treats its people? Does anyone expect to hear him speak up about the state of affairs in Venezuela if that’s where he ends up? > [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > To gloat over the fact that he’s being tormented for doing the right thing. Gentlemen: to evil! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/124 "2013-07-07T17:12:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I have a sneaking suspicion that there’s a good deal of overlap between those people and the people calling Snowden a hero. Probably, but so what? An argument is either correct or not, and it really doesn’t matter what the political leanings of the people are making the argument. In both cases, the argument is not correct, and none of the people involved in either situation is going to be charged with reason. That being said, I’m still not seeing this guy as a “hero” unless someone can convince us that he had no other, legal choice but to take the course of action he chose. AKAIK, he never even tried anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/125 "2013-07-07T17:22:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I have a sneaking suspicion that there’s a good deal of overlap between those people and the people calling Snowden a hero. Smapti you actually posted the relevant statute [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16444262&postcount=17) Granted it doesn’t rise to treason in a technical legal sense, but it is in the ballpark. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/126 "2013-07-07T17:47:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That being said, I’m still not seeing this guy as a “hero” unless someone can convince us that he had no other, legal choice but to take the course of action he chose. AKAIK, he never even tried anything else. As far as you know? How would you know? It is against the law for anyone in the know to tell you about any attempt to stop PRISM, just as it was illegal for Snowden to make any attempt to stop PRISM which didn’t involve asking very nicely the same fuckers who created it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/127 "2013-07-07T18:32:47Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > To gloat over the fact that he’s being tormented for doing the right thing. Well, all I need now is a way to monetize this and finally pointless evil will start paying off for me! > [@Smapti](#): > > I have a sneaking suspicion that there’s a good deal of overlap between those people and the people calling Snowden a hero. I thought the Plame leak was wrong. I think Snowden is wrong. I thought Manning was wrong. I’d fit most people’s definition of a US-style liberal Democrat but I guess I don’t have much patience for those sorts of things. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/128 "2013-07-07T18:36:27Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Yeah, I’m not really finding the heroes dutifully submit to their captors argument convincing. I think that describes a martyr. Not according to MLK: > [@](#): > > “An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law” > [@](#): > > The willingness to accept the penalty for breaking the unjust law is what makes civil disobedience a moral act and not merely an act of lawbreaking. Which highlights the point most people here are trying to make. Even if you accept that the government was doing something illegal and secretive (I don’t), and that Snowden is technically a whistle blower (I don’t), the cowardice and treasonous behavior he has exhibited after the fact are more than enough reason to deny his heroism or courage. > [@Krokodil](#): > > He is no hero. Did he do contract work for the NSA under the impression that they would be rescuing kittens? Does the NSA gather data on countries that do not themselves gather all the available data on the US that they can? He had moral qualms about contracting for a clandestine agency that is, by definition, in a very grey area. > > Not everybody gets to act on their conscience. A criminal lawyer who has a pedophile football coach walk into his office is obligated to represent him to the best of his ability. A priest has to take the confession of a mass murderer without calling the cops. A doctor has to treat the blocked heart arteries of a corporate raider. A waiter has to give Glenn Beck and Rachel Maddow both the same excellent service. And a contractor for the NSA has to restrain the urge to run to the newspapers–and the RUSSIANS, for God’s sake–with his incredible finds. This guy has more in common with Linda Tripp, another narcissist with a bloated notion of his/her own historic importance, than with Daniel Ellsberg. > > If you encounter criminal activities in a professional pursuit where you reasonably expect there not to be any, whistleblowing is a moral option. I’m not convinced this was the case with Mr. Snowden. Very astute post that is worth reading for everyone who thinks this guy is a hero. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/129 "2013-07-07T18:43:41Z")
The only kinds of leaks that are bad are those the government doesn’t like. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/130 "2013-07-07T19:00:30Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The only kinds of leaks that are bad are those the government doesn’t like. Who is “the government”. I am not trying to be flippant here, but I think you are overlooking the fact that “the government” include people like Bernie Sanders, Raúl Grijalva, Keith Ellison, James Risch, Trent Franks, Darryl Issa, Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsberg, etc. There people agree on almost nothing. And that list doesn’t even account for the disparate views of the government employees at almost every agency in the government. What exactly do you think is “bad” for all of them on a collective or individual level? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/131 "2013-07-07T19:04:03Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Not according to MLK: MLK said those words to assuage the concerns of law-and-order white folk. You can bet your ass he’d have been overjoyed if every civil rights protestor found a way to avoid imprisonment. Or do you think MLK would have thought, during the age of slavery, that fugitive slaves were obligated to turn themselves in and accept their punishment for their disobedience, rather than fleeing to the North? MLK felt staying in jail could be an effective way to arouse in others the sympathy which would help him achieve his goals. It was a tactic, not a moral obligation. The obligation was only to nonviolence. Besides, regardless of MLK’s thoughts, it is not morally obligatory to do things the way MLK did them. If disobeying the law in the first place could be moral [and it certainly can, as there are injust laws], then why cannot disobeying the further law about fleeing imprisonment [which would then be also an injust law] be moral in just the same way? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/132 "2013-07-07T19:26:34Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > MLK felt staying in jail could be an effective way to arouse in others the sympathy which would help him achieve his goals. And what sort of tactic would you refer to it when one defends his belief in freedom of the press and freedom from government surveillance by fleeing to a Communist dictatorship, an authoritarian quasi-autocracy, and a failed narco-state run by a former cocaine farmer? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/133 "2013-07-07T19:30:55Z")
Perhaps not an effective tactic for sympathy, as seen in this thread, but an effective tactic to avoid imprisonment. Or would you have him flee to such countries as would extradite him back to the United States? Because that’s as good as just walking into prison. He’s not endorsing those countries through his presence. He doesn’t want to be there; he wants to be in the United States. But one punishment he’s taken on in order to do what his conscience asked of him is exile. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/134 "2013-07-07T19:31:33Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > MLK said those words to assuage the concerns of law-and-order white folk. You can bet your ass he’d have been overjoyed if every civil rights protestor found a way to avoid imprisonment. Funny that he didn’t say that. But I am sure you know what he meant. Too bad he wasn’t articulate enough to say what he meant instead of what he said (multiple times) :dubious:. > [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Or do you think MLK would have thought, during the age of slavery, that fugitive slaves were obligated to turn themselves in and accept their punishment for their disobedience, rather than fleeing to the North? Do you really think the two situations are analogous? Civil disobedience only works in free or mostly free societies. An enslaved population has far fewer legitimate options. But to answer your question, I would guess he would have advocated for changes in the law/culture and general non-violent civil disobedience. Regardless, neither of us are in a position to guess. > [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Besides, regardless of MLK’s thoughts, it is not morally obligatory to do things the way MLK did them. If disobeying the law in the first place could be moral [and it certainly can, as there are injust laws], then why cannot disobeying the further law about fleeing imprisonment [which would then be also an injust law] be moral in just the same way? Because if you are engaging in civil disobedience in an effort to highlight illegality of immoral laws, you are tacitly endorsing a belief that the rule of law and morality are important in and of themselves; even if you disagree with them currently. Flouting them to leak documents, ostensibly in service to the people’s right to know, is very different from doing it to avoid harm to yourself. One is arguably selfless, which the other is purely selfish. To make no distinction between the two is to support anarchy. Furthermore, in Snowden’s specific case, his actions are an appeal to the public to right and desire to know about the government’s actions. If you think the people have a desire and right to know, you should have faith that they will see the value in your judgement and actions. He should stand before them and the government to defend his actions. Failing to do so is basically denying his commitment to those who claims to want to help. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/135 "2013-07-07T19:32:50Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Perhaps not an effective tactic for sympathy, as seen in this thread, but an effective tactic to avoid imprisonment. Or would you have him flee to such countries as would extradite him back to the United States? Because that’s as good as just walking into prison. If my belief was that the government was wrong to spy on its own people, I wouldn’t flee to countries that spy on their own people as a matter of course. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/136 "2013-07-07T19:37:50Z")
If my belief was that the government was wrong to jail people for certain actions, I wouldn’t flee to jail for carrying out those actions. Snowden is not endorsing the countries he is in. His first choice for exile was Iceland, after all. But he was unable to get to Iceland. Snowden is not endorsing the countries he is in. He’s trying to leave, after all. But he is unable to leave at the moment. Snowden is not endorsing the countries he is in. He doesn’t want to be there. But he is unable to be where he wants to be. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/137 "2013-07-07T19:39:05Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > MLK said those words to assuage the concerns of law-and-order white folk. You can bet your ass he’d have been overjoyed if every civil rights protestor found a way to avoid imprisonment. If they’d done it by beating the criminal cases against them, sure. By fleeing the country to avoid prosecution? No. He wanted to change things in the U.S. and change them for large numbers of people, and running would not have accomplished that goal. > [@](#): > > MLK felt staying in jail could be an effective way to arouse in others the sympathy which would help him achieve his goals. It was a tactic, not a moral obligation. For some reason that doesn’t work for Snowden. > [@](#): > > If disobeying the law in the first place could be moral [and it certainly can, as there are injust laws], then why cannot disobeying the further law about fleeing imprisonment [which would then be also an injust law] be moral in just the same way? It makes you less effective as an example for your cause because it indicates a dramatically lower level of commitment. > [@Indistinguishable](#): > > If my belief was that the government was wrong to jail people for certain actions, I wouldn’t flee to jail for carrying out those actions. I thought his belief was that the U.S. is carrying out illegal or immoral domestic spying. > [@](#): > > Snowden is not endorsing the countries he is in. He doesn’t want to be there. He is unable to be where he wants to be. He’s able to be there and chooses not to be. And if he is opposed to spying on civilians, what has he had to say about Russia and China? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/138 "2013-07-07T19:47:41Z")
It occurs to me that Snowden wound up shooting his own cause in the foot by fleeing. If he were here and had been arrested, we’d probably be talking more about the actual surveillance programs since we wouldn’t be talking about his flight from the U.S. and which country he’ll end up in, and those things wound up occupying a lot of the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/139 "2013-07-07T19:49:19Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > His first choice for exile was Iceland, after all. But he was unable to get to Iceland. 1. “Exile” is a strange way of spelling “flight from justice”. 2. If his first choice was Iceland, what was he doing in the People’s Republic of China? 3. [Iceland spies on its own citizens too.](http://www.savingiceland.org/2012/05/back-to-the-future-the-unrestricted-spying-of-yesterday-and-tomorrow/) ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810/140 "2013-07-07T19:52:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It makes you less effective as an example for your cause because it indicates a dramatically lower level of commitment. Being less effective (in achieving sympathy from others) is not being less moral. > [@](#): > > I thought his belief was that the U.S. is carrying out illegal or immoral domestic spying. That is one of his beliefs. I think it is fair to suppose another of his beliefs is that the U.S. should not be jailing people for revealing its illegal or immoral domestic spying. In fact, it’s a virtual certainty. > [@](#): > > He’s able to be there and chooses not to be. Only in the sense that I’m able to walk into the nearest supermarket, walk up to the cash register, and grab all its money. Our best theories of physics permit it, but it will result in my getting tossed in jail. This sort of situation is often summarized with the wording “I’m not able to do that”. > [@](#): > > And if he is opposed to spying on civilians, what has he had to say about Russia and China? Nothing in support of their spying on civilians, so far as I’ve heard. If simply staying in a country because one would be jailed for going elsewhere is endorsing that country, then, well, every dissident unable to legally leave their country is in fact a supporter of its regime. This would be a ludicrous position. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-is-a-hero-nsa-phone-capture-and-prism-are-blatantly-illegal/662810.md?page=8)