Cowards flee. Coward? Yes.
It’s pretty much a tautology.
Let me refresh your memory: 27 years is how long Nelson Mandela spent in prison. I cannot blame anyone for wanting to avoid spending 27 years in prison for doing the right thing, the good thing. This merely establishes to me that Snowden is sane. It DEFINITELY does not disqualify him from being a hero.
My, you have high standards! Or something.
Or, you have low standards.
You have failed to convince us that he had other alternatives that didn’t involve breaking the law.
Nope. Not in the community he was part of.
I don’t blame anyone who wants to avoid a long prison term either. Most of us duck those by not breaking the law. On the other hand if you stand up and say you have to break the law to follow your conscience and you then decide to flee the consequences because they look unpleasant - which you knew they would be before you started - it does imply you don’t have the courage of your conviction. People around the world face worse outcomes in the name of justice every day. Most of them don’t flee to China to avoid punishment.
That wasn’t the issue.
Hm. According to a cost-of-living calculator at CNN, $150,000 is equivalent to about $80,000 in my neck of the woods. ($100,000 is around $55,000.) That’s good, but it’s not eyes-jumping-out-of—one’s-head incredible.
I have been in his position. I refrained from releasing information. I am more confident in the need to support a bigger picture. And, hypothetically, yes. I would face the music.
I am not saying it was the right thing to, or the wrong thing to do. Only that it was the rational thing to do.
Does it take more balls to sit tight and wait to be arrested? Yes
If one decides that one does not have the balls to do this, and decides to run instead, would it be stupid to run to a friendly country? Why, yes it would
When people flatly contradict their own principles, they usually do it because it’s the rational thing to do.
Sorry I don’t call every coward a hero. Maybe you should raise your bar.
This is just… I don’t know what happens to people’s brains when national security is the topic. People just flip out and stop putting thoughts together straight. (Except me. I seem to be literally the only exception in all the world, what amazing luck.)
Look. I don’t know if Snowden is a horrible coward or a great hero. I only know like two facts about him. But your argument here isn’t just a bad one. It literally makes no sense. You’re not putting thoughts together in order. It’s kind of an unkind sounding thing for me to say but I know several of the posters in this thread (including you) to be capable of much better than this. Let me explain. We all know that justice and prosecution are not equal. It makes literally no sense for you to argue that his fear of prosecution equals a fear of justice. Your reasoning here is of the “not even wrong” variety. It’s just badly disconnected. In any other context you’d see this immediately. Something in this particular topic just makes obvious things stop seeming obvious for some reason. Another point: It doesn’t matter if he’s fleeing war or death, since my argument was just that fleeing does not equate to cowardice. My only point–the obvious point I was obviously making–was that the significance of flight depends on the context. It is not fair simply to say “heroes don’t flee.” Sometimes, they do. You have to do a lot more to show that in this particular case, this particular flight is a sign of cowardice.
Just take a step back, forget that national security is the topic here and just look at the form of the arguments you’re making. They’re bad. They’re super bad. They’re exactly the kind of instances of “reasoning” that makes some people very useful to certain other people, if you catch my drift.
Then why are you posting in this thread? This thread is not about whether he did the right thing or the wrong thing. It’s about whether he is a hero or not.
People who think a great deal like you are responsible for the thing you believe to be a great injustice.
Another example. It is clear why I am posting and clear how it is related to the topic of heroism. I am posting to point out that one of the arguments that he is not a hero is blatantly, dumbfoundingly, obviously invalid.
Not only is this extremely clear, your post contains another bizarre failure. Heroism and morality are inherently connected.
A third oddity: I haven’t said even one word about whether he did “the right thing” or “the wrong thing.”
Look, this isn’t subtle. A number has been done on your mental capacities here. I’m sorry to be blunt, but there it is. I’m not saying anything about your inherent abilities, in fact my point rests on the known fact that your inherent capacity for rationality is far above average.
People usually come to the conclusion first and then marshal the supporting evidence to back up that conclusion. So how one feels about Snowden will be influenced to some degree by how one feels about what he did. Is what the NSA is doing ok? Is leaking ever ok? If you answer yes and no, respectively than Snowden is traitor and a coward.
Is giving over US national security secrets to other nations in the name of “protecting the American people” and then allowing yourself to be used as a puppet by multiple nations to taunt the US okay?
I say “no” but some people think that’s heroic. Takes all kinds.
What happens if my answers are “definitely not” and “absolutely,” respectively, and I nonetheless think that Mr. Snowden is probably a traitor and certainly not a hero?
I dunno, what happens?
Nah for real, I’d answer the two questions in an identical fashion. Yet, I don’t view Snowden in such black and white terms. I wouldn’t call him a hero. Definitely wouldn’t call him a coward. I’d say he did an admirable thing. And I definitely don’t want to throw the book at him.
I suspect people’s views of him will moderate with time. Look at Daniel Ellsberg, is he a traitor?
He didn’t go peddling the papers to our enemies in exchange for asylum.
I do not have nearly enough :rolleyes:.