# Snowden now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859 "2019-06-21T20:06:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/21 "2019-07-08T17:08:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > . . . _What_ personal cost? If he wanted to put his money where his mouth is, he’d have turned himself in to face charges before a jury of his peers. . . I respect you for taking and defending your position, but this is the height of disingenuousness. Do you really think he incurred no huge personal cost? Living away from his home, among strangers, followed and monitored everywhere, always at risk whether real or perceived? Exiled from his previous life, vilified by his countrymen, and with no prospect of a road home? Or, as you suggest, maybe he should spend the next 60 years in a supermax following the verdict of his peers? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/22 "2019-07-08T19:45:42Z")
Let’s take these one at a time, shall we? > [@Smapti](#): > > The government as an institution is stronger and more meaningful than the petty agendae of the individuals currently mismanaging it. This is, meaningfully, untrue. The agendas of the people managing the government are directly responsible for the actions of government. This should not be difficult to believe. If government violates the Constitution, is it somehow doing that in a way that is NOT due to the actions of those managing the government? If you believe that, I’m afraid I disagree with you. Government is the people who are elected - in less and less free elections - and who control the levers of state. That does not get people off the hook, however. “Just following orders” isn’t a viable defense. If one finds government breaking the law, does one have a duty to report it in clear? I believe so. > [@](#): > > The Constitution is a good but fundamentally flawed document in many ways and could do with some updates. This is certainly true, but it is not the case that this has occurred. Are you arguing that government should operate outside the scope of its purview because it believes it has a right to do so? If so, where does that stop? The constitution is there, largely, to set controls on government. Should that be ended and government allowed to do as it pleases? > [@](#): > > If you’re not one of the people the government is looking for, then there’s no need for you to be afraid of them seeing your metadata. You’re far too uninteresting to them, and honestly, Google knows more about you than they do. And finally, ah, yes. The old chestnut of ‘If you’re not a bad guy you have nothing to fear’. It’s a fallacy, of course. When government violates a right - civil or otherwise - it becomes easier for it to violate other rights. If government can disregard the fourth amendment - that controlling unreasonable search and seizure - what is to later prevent it from violating the second amendment and seizing guns? Or the first and preventing you from speaking out against it? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/23 "2019-07-08T21:46:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do you think he’s living a better life now, in exile in Russia, the he was when he was living in Hawaii, being paid extraordinary amounts of money to help spy on American citizens? > [@KarlGauss](#): > > Do you really think he incurred no huge personal cost? Living away from his home, among strangers, followed and monitored everywhere, always at risk whether real or perceived? Exiled from his previous life, vilified by his countrymen, and with no prospect of a road home? Yes. He gets to live rent-free, all expenses paid, as the honored guest of a state that ensures his wellbeing because of how usefulness to them, and gets to be feted and treated like a celebrity by people who are mad at George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/24 "2019-07-09T07:46:12Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > And finally, ah, yes. The old chestnut of ‘If you’re not a bad guy you have nothing to fear’. It’s a fallacy, of course. Why? > [@](#): > > When government violates a right - civil or otherwise - it becomes easier for it to violate other rights. If government can disregard the fourth amendment - that controlling unreasonable search and seizure - what is to later prevent it from violating the second amendment and seizing guns? Or the first and preventing you from speaking out against it? I don’t consider archiving metadata to be “unreasonable”, especially since the NSA is actually gathering _less_ information about you than you’re voluntarily giving to Google and Facebook. I don’t consider seizing guns to be a violation of the Second, either. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/25 "2019-07-09T10:57:48Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > In Snowden’s case we see a situation where the government is not representing the culture and ideals of the country. Such should always be exposed and the exposed subject to punishment. To think otherwise is to allow government to become a self-perpetuating force that is above the law, the people and the ideals under which it was founded. Great paragraph, and I find myself nodding in agreement. In Snowden’s case, it’s a ultimately a question of whether or not outing the government’s wrongs are/were worth the price he’s paying. He seems to believe that it is. It’s also worth pointing out that James Clapper pretty clearly committed perjury before Congress when he was asked by Sen Ron Wyden of Oregn an explicit yes/no question about whether the government was essentially snooping on citizens and responded in the negative. Why is it legal for Clapper to commit perjury but not legal for Snowden to share secrets that expose both the abuses of civil liberties and subsequent perjury? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/26 "2019-07-09T11:14:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Why? > > I don’t consider archiving metadata to be “unreasonable”, especially since the NSA is actually gathering _less_ information about you than you’re voluntarily giving to Google and Facebook. > > I don’t consider seizing guns to be a violation of the Second, either. Yes, but in the case of Facebook and Google, we are essentially consenting to provide information about our activity in exchange for free use of their product. And even then, people are pushing back and urging the government for regulation of data collection when they believe that their fundamental ‘agreement’ has been violated. Thus, one problem with the bulk data collection is that the government is collecting data about our private communication without our consent. Another problem with the program was the lack of oversight, and the reason for this lack of oversight had everything to do with the program’s secrecy. The data collection procedures were apparently so secret that even the people responsible for its oversight were not truly aware of what the agencies were collecting, for what purpose, and how it was being used. One of Snowden’s chief concerns and motives for is defiance of the government is the fact that the government is increasingly operating in secrecy whereas it simultaneously has access to limitless streams of data about individual citizens. It fundamentally represents an imbalance in power between the state and the citizen, and I find it hard to disagree with him. In one of his interviews before the 2016, he presciently cautioned that we tend to trust the government’s data collection practices because we trust the right people to carry them out, but what if this power falls into the wrong hands? That’s especially important to consider now when you have a government that is increasingly willing to weaponize its bureaucracies against political opposition, is it not? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/27 "2019-07-09T11:16:03Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s also worth pointing out that James Clapper pretty clearly committed perjury before Congress when he was asked by Sen Ron Wyden of Oregn an explicit yes/no question about whether the government was essentially snooping on citizens and responded in the negative. Why is it legal for Clapper to commit perjury but not legal for Snowden to share secrets that expose both the abuses of civil liberties and subsequent perjury? Clapper had an obligation to keep classified information confidential that trumped his obligation to answer the question in any way other than in negative. Snowden decided on his own that he was above the law and knew better than anyone else what should or shouldn’t be classified. Noone’s civil liberties were violated by the existence of the program. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/28 "2019-07-09T11:19:52Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Yes, but in the case of Facebook and Google, we are essentially consenting to provide information about our activity in exchange for free use of their product. And even then, people are pushing back and urging the government for regulation of data collection when they believe that their fundamental ‘agreement’ has been violated. Thus, one problem with the bulk data collection is that the government is collecting data about our private communication without our consent. If you consent to provide this information to corporations, then you have no reasonable expectation of privacy when it comes to the government acquiring it. > [@](#): > > Another problem with the program was the lack of oversight, and the reason for this lack of oversight had everything to do with the program’s secrecy. The data collection procedures were apparently so secret that even the people responsible for its oversight were not truly aware of what the agencies were collecting, for what purpose, and how it was being used. And this is a _good_ thing. If no one person knows the scope of the data being collected, then its potential to be misused is mitigated. > [@](#): > > One of Snowden’s chief concerns and motives for is defiance of the government is the fact that the government is increasingly operating in secrecy whereas it simultaneously has access to limitless streams of data about individual citizens. It fundamentally represents an imbalance in power between the state and the citizen, and I find it hard to disagree with him. It’s not his decision to make as to whether the government has “too much power”, and he’s wrong in believing that it does. The state _should_ have more power than the citizen. > [@](#): > > In one of his interviews before the 2016, he presciently cautioned that we tend to trust the government’s data collection practices because we trust the right people to carry them out, but what if this power falls into the wrong hands? That’s especially important to consider now when you have a government that is increasingly willing to weaponize its bureaucracies against political opposition, is it not? Donald Trump isn’t going to be president forever, and we’re still going to need to be able to hunt down pedophiles, drug dealers, slave traders, and terrorists after he’s gone. If anything, we’ll need those abilities even _more_ when the time comes for a proper de-Republicanization of our body politic. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/29 "2019-07-09T12:14:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. He gets to live rent-free, all expenses paid, as the honored guest of a state that ensures his wellbeing because of how usefulness to them, and gets to be feted and treated like a celebrity by people who are mad at George W. Bush. I haven’t seen him in the news, where are you getting this info about his all expenses paid celebrity lifestyle? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/30 "2019-07-09T12:18:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Snowden decided on his own that he was above the law and knew better than anyone else what should or shouldn’t be classified. No, he emphatically did not. His whole process was to send information to select newspapers and let \*them \*decide whether or not they should publish it, whether or not this was a national discussion worth having, how much of the information to reveal and so on. He could have dumped the lot on WikiLeaks if his motives were those you ascribe to him. He did not. > [@](#): > > Why? Because I’m a government employee who doesn’t like you. Or has been assured you’re hiding something. Or just feels it in my bones. So every morning, every noon and every evening I’m going to detain you for a 30 minute search of your person. I will also regularly toss your entire home searching for evidence while you’re at work. Surely you have nothing to fear, no right to complain and don’t see any problem whatsoever with this state of affairs ? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/31 "2019-07-09T12:23:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I haven’t seen him in the news, where are you getting this info about his all expenses paid celebrity lifestyle? [Via](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden) [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden_asylum_in_Russia); > [@](#): > > In May 2015, Snowden’s lawyer Ben Wizner said that Snowden’s main source of income was speaking fees, which sometimes exceeded $10,000 per appearance. > [@](#): > > As of 2017, he was living in an undisclosed location in Moscow. He is living as a guest of the Russian government and getting paid to give talks to people who are still mad at George W. Bush. Some people would commit treason to have a lifestyle like that. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/32 "2019-07-09T12:25:47Z")
He was already earning six figures and living in Hawaii, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/33 "2019-07-09T12:27:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > No, he emphatically did not. His whole process was to send information to select newspapers and let \*them \*decide whether or not they should publish it, whether or not this was a national discussion worth having, how much of the information to reveal and so on. It wasn’t his place to decide whether newspapers should make that decision. He decided that he was above the law and he knew better than anyone else what information the press ought to have. > [@](#): > > Because I’m a government employee who doesn’t like you. Or has been assured you’re hiding something. Or just feels it in my bones. So every morning, every noon and every evening I’m going to detain you for a 30 minute search of your person. I will also regularly toss your entire home searching for evidence while you’re at work. You’re going to get bored pretty quickly and your boss is going to have your ass on a platter about you wasting so much time on a middle-aged loner with nothing interesting or noteworthy about him. Also, remind me exactly who’s being detained for 90 minutes every day by the programs Snowden compromised? > [@](#): > > Surely you have nothing to fear, no right to complain and don’t see any problem whatsoever with this state of affairs ? Hell, I get paid by the hour. > [@CarnalK](#): > > He was already earning six figures and living in Hawaii, dude. But he had to _work_ back then. Clearly he felt he’d be better off as a living piece of Agitprop. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/34 "2019-07-09T12:33:27Z")
Got paid. In 2015. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/35 "2019-07-09T12:34:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > But he had to _work_ back then. Clearly he felt he’d be better off as a living piece of Agitprop. Or maybe you are being completely silly. I’m not saying you should like the guy but trying to say he did what he did for a personal lifestyle bump makes you look rather irrational on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/36 "2019-07-09T12:35:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > But he had to _work_ back then. Clearly he felt he’d be better off as a living piece of Agitprop. Or he thought the world would be better off at his considerable expense. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/37 "2019-07-09T12:39:39Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Or maybe you are being completely silly. I’m not saying you should like the guy but trying to say he did what he did for a personal lifestyle bump makes you look rather irrational on the subject. > [@Ruken](#): > > Or he thought the world would be better off at his considerable expense. If that was what he wanted, he’d be in prison right now. Or was putting his money where his mouth was too _expensive_ for the “benefit” the world would gain from destabilizing America’s national security? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/38 "2019-07-09T12:50:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You’re going to get bored pretty quickly and your boss is going to have your ass on a platter about you wasting so much time on a middle-aged loner with nothing interesting or noteworthy about him. > > Also, remind me exactly who’s being detained for 90 minutes every day by the programs Snowden compromised? The point was here. [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]You’re here. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/39 "2019-07-09T13:35:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If that was what he wanted, he’d be in prison right now. > > Or was putting his money where his mouth was too _expensive_ for the “benefit” the world would gain from destabilizing America’s national security? This is what I mean by sounding irrational. What he wanted was to get the information out, not be Smapti’s perfect example of a martyr. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859/40 "2019-07-09T13:54:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Or was putting his money where his mouth was too _expensive_ for **the “benefit” the world would gain** from destabilizing America’s national security? That was not what he was after, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowden-now/835859.md?page=3)