# Snowpiercer Qs **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 24, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373 "2020-05-24T03:27:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/21 "2020-05-26T00:46:17Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Is that what the movie (or comic book) says? Or your speculation? > > I agree a lunatic design makes more sense if you specify a lunatic designed it. Speculation, evidenced by building a perpetual motion machine and instead of building a power plant, built a train on a continuous circuit around the world. Recall, he did this before anyone knew the Earth would freeze over. This wouldn’t have been a one year program, or spur of the moment. I seem to recall he loved trains as a kid. That’s not lunacy? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/22 "2020-05-26T01:31:05Z")
Maybe it can’t work for a stationary power plant, the train has to physically move for perpetual motion to work? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/23 "2020-05-26T01:53:50Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Maybe it can’t work for a stationary power plant, the train has to physically move for perpetual motion to work? An imaginary power source can work any way you want to imagine it works. But the idea that the train works in such a crazy way because the guy who designed it was nuts is the explanation that comes closest to making sense so far. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/24 "2020-05-26T11:28:54Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > That makes even less sense (if possible). Why not? Cars produce more power when driving then idling, if this mythical powerplant that drives the train has no problem in stop/start and can go to zero power, and is designed as a train, why not directly couple the powerplant to the wheels? Not saying this train was specifically built for the purpose of survival, but just for transportation, which served the function of survival when the situation changed, not by design but it was a survivable environment. Thus harder to modify to be stationary. One reason that it may need to move is the same as the car. While you could rev the engine, and you may be able to spin the train wheels, the design of the engine is to be under the load of moving the train to control the revs and prevent overspeed. And though you could rev a car to highway RPM’s it’s not using as much fuel, thus producing far less power (and with the train analogy less life support). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/25 "2020-05-26T15:29:16Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Why not? Cars produce more power when driving then idling, if this mythical powerplant that drives the train has no problem in stop/start and can go to zero power, and is designed as a train, why not directly couple the powerplant to the wheels? Not saying this train was specifically built for the purpose of survival, but just for transportation, which served the function of survival when the situation changed, not by design but it was a survivable environment. Thus harder to modify to be stationary. In the real world, cars and other engines _consume_ more energy the more power they produce. If your energy source is finite, then any power put into moving the train means there is less available for heat, lighting, and other life support. But I made my objection before it was pointed out that the engine is apparently explicitly a perpetual motion one. Once you are freed from the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics, then all bets are off. You can put all the power you want into pointless motion and still have all you need for other needs. > [@](#): > > One reason that it may need to move is the same as the car. While you could rev the engine, and you may be able to spin the train wheels, the design of the engine is to be under the load of moving the train to control the revs and prevent overspeed. And though you could rev a car to highway RPM’s it’s not using as much fuel, thus producing far less power (and with the train analogy less life support). You’re still missing the point. There’s no point in fanwanking “reasons” the train works as it does. If the Laws of Thermodynamcs don’t apply, then the story is fundamentally a fantasy. You might as well fanwank why there are ducts all over the place in _Brazil_, or the genetics of the half-black half-white aliens in _Star Trek_, or how the animals came to talk in _Animal Farm_. As I said, the train moves in order to prevent easy passage from the back to the front (and also to produce cool visuals). That’s it. > [@](#): > > The physics and economics of the train make no sense, but that’s not unusual in science fiction. Take for example _Mortal Engines_, in which giant predatory fast-moving cities would be about the least efficient way possible to obtain scarce resources. I would contrast _Snowpiercer_, which has a stupid premise, but is not a stupid movie, with _Mortal Engines_, which has an equally stupid premise, but is an exceedingly stupid movie. In _Snowpiercer_, there’s an internal logic to the story. _Mortal Engines_ is just an excuse to throw together every dystopian trope we’ve ever seen before into a total mishmash of a movie. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/26 "2020-05-26T16:16:47Z")
The train is always moving. It’s powered by sweat and blood and human bodies. It retraces the same tracks so many times. No one gets off, not alive, anyway. And you’re on it. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/27 "2020-05-26T18:10:24Z")
The internal logic of the physics of Snowpiercer make a little more sense when you think of the movie as [a sequel to Willy Wonka](https://nerdist.com/article/willy-wonka-chocolate-factory-snowpiercer-sequel-fan-theory-dan-cave/), in which Charlie Bucket inherits the candy company, adopts the “Wilfred” persona, and focuses on the rail transportation line of business. ETA: My favorite part of this theory is how there are critical areas of the train that can only physically large enough to be operated by Oompa-Loompas. Or small children, if the oompa-loompas all died out. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/28 "2020-05-28T12:25:42Z")
FWIW, in the tv show, (technically a spoiler, but IMHO will do nothing to ruin the plot if you read this): they show blueprints stamped “Perpetual Motion”, and explicitly state that if they slow the train down, their electrical production is reduced as well. So it sounds like everything is coupled together, and they can’t separate the mechanical motion of the wheels from running the generators. And the perpetual motion machine is exactly that - physical motion, not some other form of energy. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/29 "2020-05-29T19:25:30Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > ETA: My favorite part of this theory is how there are critical areas of the train that can only physically large enough to be operated by Oompa-Loompas. Or small children, if the oompa-loompas all died out. I seem to recall that the small children were needed because the mechanism broke down, and not because the design intended a need for small children. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/30 "2020-05-29T22:28:24Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I seem to recall that the small children were needed because the mechanism broke down, and not because the design intended a need for small children. That’s what I remember, too–the children weren’t the power source–they were doing maintenance and repair on the machinery. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/31 "2020-06-08T06:54:41Z")
I LOVED the movie and think they did a great job with the TV show. But logic points bother me: They keep repeating on the TV show that it’s 1001 cars. At 50’ long each, which to me seems to be the minimum for what they are showing, that is short of 10 miles long. So how do Melanie and the other officials so readily move back and forth across the train? I think another episode a character mentioned there were 3000 passengers, and 70% were Tailees. That’s 4285. But every time the cops show up at the tail, it looks like there’s no more than 50 people there. I also need help with how the train was constructed, how the creator of it was able to get the countries of the world to let them build a world wide track, a feat that would take decades, and to agree to let them sell tickets to a select few. ## Again fun movie and show, but every week I give it the One-Eyed Jack. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/32 "2020-06-09T04:33:53Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > So how do Melanie and the other officials so readily move back and forth across the train? They showed a vehicle for this in the Pilot episode, in what was classified in Ep 4 as the “sub-train”. There is a ski-lift / sky bucket / car on ropes / wonkavator in the “basement” of each car. Which gets me to my point. I don’t question the length of the cars. **The height of the cars.** But seriously. I assume that it’s _basically_ a cruise ship. But, at a point in time you have to address this. don’t you? What are your guesses here? I figure around 21-26 feet tall, or about three levels to a car, given a 6 foot person and clearance and flooring. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/33 "2020-06-09T05:02:00Z")
That’s funny, because it’s more the width of the cars that’s unbelievable for me. Like the whole idea of the perpetual motion train around the world, I’m considering it part of the allegorical conceit that the cars are as big as they need to be in both dimensions for the plot. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/34 "2020-06-09T05:33:17Z")
It takes a trained writer to keep a plot on track, thus the train and the track. Cool, huh! ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/35 "2020-06-10T04:04:25Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > That’s funny, because it’s more the width of the cars that’s unbelievable for me. Like the whole idea of the perpetual motion train around the world, I’m considering it part of the allegorical conceit that the cars are as big as they need to be in both dimensions for the plot. The more I think about this, I think my frame comes from having seen (and own) the movie. I think I “bought in” to the width issue, from having seen that. Likewise, with the exception of bunk beds (two mattresses tall) I don’t think the movie really pushes the width issue. I mean, I think if we are saying “cruise ship” [[Ok, I guess just I am, but still…]] I think we can probably force the issue and find an airplane fuselage that fits the frame [ha]. No, but seriously, I’ll concede your point, in principle, I think it just barely works as is, but again, for me, the height was the first thing to get to me. I’m sure you probably come primed from the width issue in a similar fashion. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/36 "2020-06-10T13:13:44Z")
Never seen the show or the movie… But how about this… The engine pulls the train of course, but it has to keep moving because each, or some of the cars wheels are connected to generators producing electricity to provide heat to each car. That might make some sense if you got a train 1001 cars long. Or have ‘generator’ cars interspersed between the passenger cars. Not free energy of course, about all that would help would be that they wouldn’t need to run power lines all the way from the front of the train to the back. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/37 "2020-06-10T15:27:36Z")
Do they show generators on the train? Picture this: the magical train engine makes the wheels spin because they’ve got Maxwell’s Demon enslaved up in there. But the electrical power comes from the interaction of the train with the tracks. Maybe the sleepers are bar magnets and the cars have coils on their bottoms. Maybe the train moving through the Earth’s magnetic field is what induces a current flow. It seems cold enough outside to have some superconductors in play. Either way, the train has to move to generate electricity. Even better, the ‘perpetual motion’ engine isn’t applying a torque to an axle at all; it’s just making a spatial distortion/singularity/Alcubierre knot in front of the train, such that the engine is always attracted to the singularity. It’s the drag induced by air resistance and the ‘regenerative braking’ of the coils in the cars that keeps the train at a constant ground speed. Better yet: the engine is falling toward a (moving) point in space that’s several thousand kilometers away, and which can’t move in space too fast or be any closer to the engine (for reasons). So if you want to make something travel in a loop using this technology, the loop has to be of a size on the order of Earth’s diameter. You aren’t going to be building a lot of local power plants using this tech because it doesn’t scale down. Nothing is attracted to the spatial distortion except for the engine itself (and the train is bolted to the engine). (Thinking more) OK, so once started the engine would just rocket off in a straight line, accelerating constantly, zipping out of the solar system and going relativistic in the blink of an eye. But the engine is mounted at an angle such that the attractive singularity is below the horizon and far ahead. The engine is pulled forward and downward at the same time, so it sticks down to the track. Gravity keeps pulling the nose of the train down, applying a torque that keeps reorienting the engine so that the singularity is always below the horizon. ‘Conservation of inertia’ means that the engine can’t be rotated faster than, say, once per 24 hours. Ah! The farther the induced singularity is from the engine, the greater the force generated, described by a punishing power law equation. Good luck getting a nanoNewton out of the system for separations of less than 10,000 Km. You don’t get any electrical power out of the engine/singularity directly. QED. ETA: the engine is turned on only once, and can’t be altered thereafter. No tweaking of the singularity distance, no chances to turn it off. You can cut it loose from the train and let it find its own path, but you can’t modulate it in any way. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373/38 "2020-06-10T21:52:44Z")
The train can’t stop because if it did then the slaves could escape. They can’t get out without dying. It’s all about the lies that keep us enslaved to a system that doesn’t work for the majority of us. The top 30% are raised to believe that this is for the good of everybody, and that they would all die together if the status quo is not maintained. They are led to swim in a pool of knowledge that helps them believe they are good people, while keeping the 70% wretched. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/snowpiercer-qs/854373.md?page=1)