You may be correct, but we’re not talking about a kid in Japan dressing up as Tojo.
It doesn’t change my point, which is that dressing in Nazi gear is not a joke because of contemporary & local neo-Nazis, and that’s why it’s different to dressing as Stalin or Idi Amin or any other murderous dictator of the past.
You and I don’t disagree that it’s bad to dress in a Hitler costume at school, we just disagree on why.
What if there are no contemporary/local Neo-Nazis in the area in question?
For example, if you went to a fancy dress party (not a recognised re-enactment or other event with the appropriate historical context) in some places in the US dressed as a Confederate cavalry officer, some people might find that to be offensive and/or in bad taste.
But if you did the same thing in the UK or Australia or New Zealand, people wouldn’t bat an eyelid- because the Confederacy were “the side dressed in grey” during the US Civil War and the whole “slavery/racism/KKK” aspects of it don’t enter into the equation for the most part.
So, dressing as Hitler for halloween in an area with an active Neo-Nazi community and a sizeable Jewish population? Probably not a good idea. Dressing as Hitler for halloween in an area with no Neo-Nazis and no Jewish people? No problems there, IMHO.
Just for the record, the connection between the fictional character Count Dracula and the historic figure Vlad the Impaler has been greatly exaggerated. Bram Stoker did borrow the “Dracula” nickname from Vlad the Impaler and Van Helsing mentions that in life Dracula had fought against the Turks, but that’s about it as far as historic references in the text. There’s no evidence that Stoker knew anything more about Vlad the Impaler than that. There isn’t even any evidence that he knew Vlad the Impaler was named “Vlad” or nicknamed “the Impaler”. If Stoker did know further details about Vlad the Impaler, he chose not to include them in his book.
See Count Dracula vs Vlad the Impaler for more details. Miller is one of the world’s leading authorities, perhaps THE leading authority, on Dracula as a literary work.
I’d be impressed if I saw someone who actually went to the trouble to make an accurate Vlad the Impaler costume, which would look nothing like the familiar Bela Lugosi-inspired Halloween Dracula costumes.
Exactly. As I said, it’s all about who you might offend and the fact that one historical figure will, for whatever reason, offend more people than another figure who might have done something worse. Dress up as a Japanese soldier in America and no one will really care. Dress up as one in South Korea and you’d better be wearing a cup.
Gustav, meet Santayana.
Actually, wouldn’t being dressed as a scary bitchard like Hitler be more appropriate than Caesar?
Yesterday at the supermarket most of the workers were in disguise. I saw the Joker, Lucrecia Borgia (well, a woman in renaissance dress) and a hangman replacing food on the shelves…
I wouldn’t want my kid to go dressed as Hitler, but as a teacher it wouldn’t faze me so long as the rest of the behavior was his usual. That is, duckwalking and throwing Roman salutes around because you’re dressed as Hitler, Goebbels or an SS officer is not acceptable in the same way that trying to lasso your classmates because you’re dressed as a cowboy is not acceptable.
As a principal, I’d be worried but not surprised when one of the teachers sent the kid over.
IME it’s one of those things that if you get hysterical, the kid has “pwned” you big time and doesn’t learn anything. If you take it in stride, you pwn him flat, earn his respect and that of his classmates, and they’re more likely to come to you with the big questions (like “why did Miss Rosie get so angry because Tommy dressed up as Hitler but being Jack the Ripper is OK?”).
My Sunday class of 4th-graders still remembers me as “that Sunday school teacher who would answer our difficult questions when nobody else would.” Including “who is this Hitler guy whose” (fake) “diaries have been found and why won’t our parents tell us?”
… when there isn’t a mobile “cart” that blows lighted propane flames underneath it to burn the grass, then German school-children are bussed there on “day-trips” to pull the grass up from in-between the gravel, because nothing bearing any sign of life should exist there ever again.
I am sorry to be so graphic, but for a child to dress up as Adolf Hitler for Halloween in school?
The only way I would allow it, is if that child knew his character’s history, and could relate it to the class.
Anything else?
A put-up job by the parents.
And haven’t we seen a lot of that lately?
Quasimodem
I apologize if the word “relate” was misunderstood!
I, of course meant “explain”.
Or “re-cap”.
Sorry.
Q
So, a 14 year old who was fully aware of who Hitler was, what he had done, how evil it was, and what a messed up person he was, but felt that Hitler was now a pop-culture “character” and that dressing as Hitler in no way condoned or supported his views and actions would get a “pass” vis-a-vis the wearing of said costume, in your view?
(Not a criticism, just trying to clarify your standpoint on the subject)
“Pop-Culture Character”?
What child in their right mind, knowing his history, would consider Adolf a “Pop-Hero”?
How in the HELL do you expect a 14 year old to defend or understand that kind of position?
Okay. Dress your 14 year old in a Nazi SS Uniform and send him/her trick or treating or to school!
My “standpoint” on the subject is: “Don’t send your child somewhere in a costume where his appearance can hurt or offend!”
End of story.
I was just having second thoughts about the word “relate”.
I have second thoughts about a lot of shit lately.
Note I didn’t say “Hero”, I said “Character”. No right thinking person regards Hitler as a “Hero”, but he has become a “Character” in much the same way “Dracula” or “Eric Cartman” is.
The point I was making is that, if you (generic you) watch a lot of shows like The Simpsons, Family Guy, South Park and so on, you see that Hitler often shows up in these contexts as an object of amusement. Like that episode of The Simpsons where Bart makes a series of expensive prank calls, and there’s a scene labelled Buenos Aires, Argentina of Hitler trying to get into his car (with the personalised plates “AH 1” or something like that) whilst the car phone rings. Just as he gets the door unlocked, the carphone stops ringing at Hitler derides it as “ein nuisancephone”, shortly before another man cycles past and cheerily says “Buenos Dias, Mein Fuhrer!”- to which Hitler half-heartedly responds with a tired “Ja, ja” sort of expression. Hitler is, in short, the subject of humour because he’s a recognisable figure that people like to make fun of.
In fact, there are several fairly well known humorous pop culture themes regarding Hitler and The Nazis.
I could have done it at 14, no worries. I’d never want to dress up as Hitler, though, so it wouldn’t have been an issue. But I also grew up in a different country with different attitudes towards The War, and people where I grew up would have regarded a Hitler costume as “funny”- especially if you did something like sellotape a comb under your nose and walk in exaggerated goose-steps.
Okay. Dress your 14 year old in a Nazi SS Uniform and send him/her trick or treating or to school!
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We don’t really have halloween here to the same extent you guys in the US do, so that’s not a scenario that’s likely to arise here.
I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with you there. The argument is over whether or not a Hitler costume can “hurt or offend” and that’s where there are differing and polarised points of view.
Missed the edit window, but I just wanted to add that I’m not trying to fight with you or anything, Quasi. I’m just presenting an alternative point of view on what is, admittedly, a controversial subject.
The only place that really does Halloween is North America. It has caught on to an extent in other English-speaking countries, but it isn’t something that every English-speaking kid does, by any means.
There are plenty of Hitler-worshipping neo-Nazis in North America. And in the rest of the western world, too.
And one doesn’t have to be Jewish to have a problem with Nazis - they murdered plenty of ethnic groups, along with all varieties of leftists, homosexuals, the disabled, and pretty much anyone who disagreed with them. Basically if you weren’t a Nazi, (or similar right-winger, like the Italian and Spanish Fascists) you were fair game.
I admit that’s a bunch of words. I’ll even concede the tone is argumentative. As for meaning, though, you got me.
This isn’t an argument; it’s just hand-waving. It is completely relevant. Why would it be allowed to dress up as one symbol of ultimate evil but not a symbol of a different ultimate evil? Because vampires can’t really rise from the dead and hurt you? Neither can Hitler.
If you don’t believe torture and murder are happening now, I am afraid you are more naive than I thought.
Regards,
Shodan
That’s not remotely what he said. Technically your if-then statement is true, but then, it’s true about you, too.
Hitler can’t now, but was responsible for the death of more than 6 million people within the last 70 years. No vampire has, AFAIK, ever been responsible for the actual death of an actual human being.
It’s about common sense. I completely agree with C K Dexter’s view on the matter. It was 100% distilled common sense.
If you lack common sense, allow me to help you:
Context.
Appropriateness.
Relevance.
Consequence.
Not all social situations are identical, therefore one would expect multiple standards regarding how to behave in any setting. If you can’t weigh the things listed above against every action you take in whatever situation, then come to a sound conclusion as to the fall out of what your actions will bring and act in your best interests, then I don’t know how you get by in life.
“Within the last 70 years”? That’s kind of disingenuous don’t you think? I suppose by the same token Genghis Khan has killed 2.5 million people within the last 800 years. Shit, that’s 3000 deaths per year.
How many has Hitler killed in the last 60 years? We’re pretty sure he’s dead now.
