# So ... about black holes **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 24, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516 "2020-04-24T18:37:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/1 "2020-04-24T18:37:19Z")
The laws of space and time break down inside a black hole. Is there a possibility that 2 + 2 ≠ 4 inside a black hole? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/2 "2020-04-24T18:45:16Z")
Well first off you’re confusing mathematical identities with objective reality. Secondly, a blackhole needs to be thought of as 3 regions, outside the event horizon, inside the event horizon and the singularity at the centre. Spacetime doesn’t “breakdown” until you start trying to figure out what’s happening at the singularity. Or a region sufficiently close that GR/QM blow up ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/3 "2020-04-24T19:50:16Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > The laws of space and time break down inside a black hole. > > Is there a possibility that 2 + 2 ≠ 4 inside a black hole? All numbers become asymptotically close to zero as they approach the singularity. So, while 2 + 2 may still = 4, that may be for vanishingly small values of 2 and 4. Just MHO. I haven’t actually been there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/4 "2020-04-25T00:45:14Z")
2 + 2 = 4 has nothing to do with the laws of space and time, but can be proved within the axiomatic definition of mathematics - which I studied 50 years ago. The definition of “4” is such that 2 + 2 = 4. 4 is succ(succ(succ(1))) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/5 "2020-04-25T00:50:56Z")
% Black hole succ! Black hole succ! % ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/6 "2020-04-25T02:35:09Z")
you don’t need a black hole for that…just start counting in base 3, where 2 + 2 = 11. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/7 "2020-04-25T02:54:51Z")
Inside of a black hole it’s too dark to add. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/8 "2020-04-25T06:36:10Z")
Wouldn’t it be really _bright_ inside a black hole, because of all the trapped light and whatnot falling down on you as you fell towards the centre? ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/9 "2020-04-25T09:16:28Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > All numbers become asymptotically close to zero as they approach the singularity. So, while 2 + 2 may still = 4, that may be for vanishingly small values of 2 and 4. > > Just MHO. I haven’t actually been there yet. Does 2 ever approach so close that it is between 2 and 1, but is still a whole number? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/10 "2020-04-25T09:50:31Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Does 2 ever approach so close that it is between 2 and 1, but is still a whole number? In the hyperreal number system, you can have a number that is less than 2 but larger than every decimal number less than 2. Larger than 1.99, larger than 1.999, etc. Then, you can “convert” the number back into a decimal by throwing away that small difference (called an infinitesimal). What you get is exactly 2, a whole number. Not exactly what you asked for, but probably as close as you can get. It’s all perfectly sound if you follow the rules. This has nothing to do with black holes, though I would say it is an open question what number system the universe uses. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/11 "2020-04-25T10:43:36Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Wouldn’t it be really _bright_ inside a black hole, because of all the trapped light and whatnot falling down on you as you fell towards the centre? [Accretion disc.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accretion_disk) For interesting violations of the laws of physics, how about naked singularities? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/12 "2020-04-25T19:21:19Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > [Accretion disc.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accretion_disk) I was thinking about _inside_ the event horizon… > [@DPRK](#): > > For interesting violations of the laws of physics, how about naked singularities? :: hides eyes :: ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/13 "2020-04-25T23:42:15Z")
I didn’t notice this the firtst time I poked through this thread: > [@Senegoid](#): > > …I haven’t actually been there yet. I chuckled, thinking “Wait til Elon reads this, and starts selling tickets. One way, to start with…” ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/14 "2020-04-25T23:43:16Z")
n/m . . . Duplicitous Post ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/15 "2020-04-26T00:42:31Z")
One need not submerge in cosmic darkness. Out here in the open air we find that 1+1=3 for large enough values of 1. [XKCD](https://xkcd.com/2205/) explicates the approximations. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/16 "2020-04-26T02:43:54Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > [Accretion disc.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accretion_disk) > > For interesting violations of the laws of physics, how about naked singularities? Are those “buck naked”? (You can be buck naked with your socks on. – Jerry Clower) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/17 "2020-04-26T07:45:57Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > This has nothing to do with black holes, though I would say it is an open question what number system the universe uses. “God made the integers; all else is the work of man.” [indent]-- Leopold Kronecker[/indent] ---
**Author:** ![A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a87d85/32.png) [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Dodgy_Dude)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/18 "2020-04-26T18:23:15Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Well first off you’re confusing mathematical identities with objective reality. Actually what I was thinking about was this new idea that information is destroyed in a black hole. Neither Discovery Channel or Science Channel explain the concept very well so I thought I would ask here. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/19 "2020-04-27T04:16:54Z")
> [@A\_Dodgy\_Dude](#): > > Actually what I was thinking about was this new idea that information is destroyed in a black hole. Is this some new thinking about black holes? I thought the theory was that information is never destroyed, even in a black hole. Has the thinking changed on that? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516/20 "2020-04-27T04:34:06Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > “God made the integers; all else is the work of man.” > [indent]-- Leopold Kronecker[/indent] He only said that because Cantor was talking smack about him behind his back. Just normal math drama. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-black-holes/852516.md?page=2)