# So ... about The Terminator (1984)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Tags:** movies
**Created:** [December 23, 2022, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017 "2022-12-23T19:59:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/41 "2023-05-17T15:53:33Z")
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457nGTf4fsQ)
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### Author:  [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)
#### Post date: [May 23, 2023, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/42 "2023-05-23T23:58:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> I think that T3 was the movie that T2 should have been.
I think T3 is actually a very underrated movie… the action scenes are excellent, and Claire Danes as a normal person trying to deal with getting sucked into the impossible is pretty damn good. Its main flaw, imho, is that it basically takes a dump on the ending of the (iconic and vastly superior) T2. If it were just a standalone time travel robot movie, it would be a pretty good one.
But, that said, I don’t think I’ve ever before heard anyone express your opinion. You are certainly, to put it mildly, in the minority.
(For reference, audience score on IMDB is:
T1: 8.1
T2: 8.6
T3: 6.3
Salvation: 6.5
Genisys: 6.3
Dark fate: 6.2
And the Rotten Tomatoes Tomatometer:
T1: 100
T2: 91
T3: 69
Salvation: 33
Genisys: 26
Dark Fate: 70
)
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### Author:  [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2023, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/43 "2023-05-25T10:32:47Z")
> [@Lumpy](#):
>
> P.S. why there, why then? I think they should have had a scene showing Sarah getting a parking ticket; then cut forward to Skynet’s machines digging through the charred rubble of former Los Angeles and finding a copy of that ticket: the one data point Skynet had of when and where it could find John Connor’s mother.
Skynet’s information on Sarah Connor was incomplete. That’s why for a good part of the first movie Arnold has to rely on a phone book and gun down all the other women with that same name, in the order they were listed. Kyle was given a picture of Sarah by John and knew what she looked like and possibly other intel to let him track her down before termination. Incidentally that’s the same picture Sarah is hustled into buying from a young boy in the final scene of the movie.
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### Author:  [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2023, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/44 "2023-05-25T11:57:26Z")
> [@Lumpy](#):
>
> Going by just the first movie, it’s apparent that Skynet believed its plan could succeed, and the human resistance at least didn’t dare take the risk that it might.
I thought sending back the T-800 was the final act of a machine side that knew it had already lost, and this was their last, desperate Hail Mary attempt to alter the outcome, but it was actually cementing their fate. I could be wrong.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/45 "2023-05-25T21:47:11Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#):
>
> But, that said, I don’t think I’ve ever before heard anyone express your opinion. You are certainly, to put it mildly, in the minority.
I think part of it is that I’m not a big fan of special effects for their own sake, put in just to make you go “Oh, wow, look at that special effect”. Which was most of the special effects in T2: Most of the metal-morphing scenes weren’t there because they made sense as something for a killer robot to do, but just because they looked cool. And that’s especially so when the special effect quickly becomes not-so-special: Star Trek: DS9 was using the same effect on a weekly TV show within a few months. In T3, though, the metal-morphing made much more sense: It was a good way to disguise a robot, and to encase modern weaponry in something that could go through a time machine (in that universe’s rules), but they didn’t try to make the entire robot out of it just so it could turn around in place when it hit a wall.
For comparison, when you mention “the special effects in the Lord of the Rings movies”, most folks think of the Balrog, or the Eye of Sauron, or the like. But nobody ever mentions the one that shows up in nearly every single scene, of making some people look like they’re half the height of others. That’s the mark of a really great special effect: Nobody notices it.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2023, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/46 "2023-05-25T22:35:40Z")
> [@DCnDC](#):
>
> I thought sending back the T-800 was the final act of a machine side that knew it had already lost, and this was their last, desperate Hail Mary attempt to alter the outcome, but it was actually cementing their fate.
IIRC, one of the tie-in novels established that Skynet sent the Model 101 and the T-1000 back in time mere minutes before John Connor’s forces destroyed it.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2023, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/47 "2023-05-25T22:54:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> IIRC, one of the tie-in novels established that Skynet sent the Model 101 and the T-1000 back in time mere minutes before John Connor’s forces destroyed it.
My headcanon for the first two movies is that Skynet realized it was losing the war fairly early on, and started working on time travel. By the time it had a functioning time travel prototype, John Connor’s resistance was essentially at its front gate. It sent the T-1000 through first, to kill John as a child, but that didn’t work, and SkyNet didn’t know why. By this point, the resistance is inside its final stronghold, and moments away from unplugging the AI, so it fires up its Terminator factory, runs off a standard T-800 model, and sends it after John’s mom, literally moments before its destroyed by the resistance. John sends Reese after the T-800, then re-runs the final construction job in the Terminator factory, with some programming tweaks, and sends that one after the T-1000.
This only holds for the first two movie, and assumes that Sarah’s “vision” of a non-nuke future is just wishful thinking. Which works for me, because those are the only two movies in the franchise I like, and it keeps the closed time loop setup of the original, which is way more interesting than a malleable or branching future.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [May 25, 2023, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/48 "2023-05-25T22:54:22Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#):
>
> > [@mbh](#):
> >
> > And Connor knew that, and that’s the reason he chose Reese for the mission.
>
> Weeeeelllll…
>
> In a closed loop time line, yes.
>
> But if you bring T2, or simply assume Terminator is a branching timeline scenario, then when Connor sent Reese back, _at that time_ Reese was not John’s father. His father was…who knows?
>
> As soon as Reese hit 1984, that act created a new timeline. And that timeline led to a slightly different Skynet, which sent a T1000 terminator back this time. And John sent a terminator back instead of Reese (who maybe was alive in 20-something). And then it diverges even more.
One possible future. From your point of view. I don’t know “tech stuff”.
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### Author:  [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2023, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/49 "2023-05-26T00:32:23Z")
Reese was ALWAYS John’s father. John gave him the picture of Sarah because of that.
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### Author:  [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2023, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/50 "2023-05-26T05:05:13Z")
> [@DCnDC](#):
>
> I thought sending back the T-800 was the final act of a machine side that knew it had already lost, and this was their last, desperate Hail Mary attempt to alter the outcome, but it was actually cementing their fate. I could be wrong.
Skynet was cementing their fate as winners, not losers. We see Skynet bootstrapping itself in the second movie, with Dyson using parts from the future as the basis for his designs. This results in a deadlier Skynet that can send back a T-1000 instead of just a T-800. After T2 you have your choice of branching timelines but in all of them Skynet (or Legion) is much deadlier than it was before.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2023, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/51 "2023-05-26T06:13:09Z")
> [@TBG](#):
>
> Reese was ALWAYS John’s father.
I disagree. In the ur-timeline, John’s father was just some rando and he grew up without any foreknowledge of the rise of Skynet. As soon as Kyle Reese got sent back in time, history was changed.
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### Author:  [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2023, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/52 "2023-05-26T06:33:36Z")
> [@DWMarch](#):
>
> In the TV show, Terminators were shown burying weapon caches in the past. I presume some of this was happening on the Resistance side as well although I don’t recall if they showed it happening.
There was an episode showing a resistance cell that had a hidden safe full of guns and money, to help the past war effort. Which brings up the point with all the past battles, some poor LAPD guy got put in charge of “The Barcode Gang” task force, and I assume somebody was asking why 80% of the yearly production of thermite was sold in L.A. after 1984.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2023, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/53 "2023-05-26T12:36:05Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#):
>
> And the Rotten Tomatoes Tomatometer:
> T1: 100
> T2: 91
I agree with RT here, and will stake out what may be a controversial position: Terminator was a much better movie than T2. It didn’t have the fancy CGI effects, but it’s a tighter movie, a flawlessly executed action picture. T2 has some bloat.
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### Author:  [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2023, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/54 "2023-05-26T15:40:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> I agree with RT here, and will stake out what may be a controversial position: Terminator was a much better movie than T2. It didn’t have the fancy CGI effects, but it’s a tighter movie, a flawlessly executed action picture. T2 has some bloat.
I think I’d come down on the side of T2 being better, but I don’t disagree with your analysis. It depends what one means by “better”. T1 is… um… unambitious? It’s a small movie with a small story, executed fantastically.
T2 shoots for the stars. It tries to be a mega-huge-budget special effects spectacular with massive action scenes and mind-melting visuals that also tells a meaningful and propulsive and surprising and emotionally satisfying story. And it… gets pretty damn close.
I’ve certainly gotten more entertainment over the course of my life from watching T2 than T1, but I also agree that T2 has more flaws than T1.
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### Author:  [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/55 "2023-05-26T15:48:06Z")
I think @RickJay and @MaxTheVool make good points. I’d probably say something along the lines that T1 is the “better” movie (tight, meaningful, little to no bloat) but T2 is the more “fun” of the two. Sure, it meanders a bit, but it has more “Gee Wiz!” cool moments that appeal to my internal 14 year old.
I own both on DVD, and watch both at least yearly, which is more than I can say for the sequels.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [May 26, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/56 "2023-05-26T19:53:58Z")
They’re both great sf movies, but given a choice for a re-watch, I’d take T2 every time. Awesome in so many, many ways.
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### Author:  [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)
#### Post date: [May 27, 2023, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/57 "2023-05-27T01:14:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> > [@TBG](#):
> >
> > Reese was ALWAYS John’s father.
>
> I disagree. In the ur-timeline, John’s father was just some rando and he grew up without any foreknowledge of the rise of Skynet. As soon as Kyle Reese got sent back in time, history was changed.
Reese fell for Sarah and agreed to go save her in part because of the photo. Just as John planned for, because he knew Reese was his father. Any “other” timelines only happen because of sequels and spin-off media. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it (at least in this timeline).
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### Author:  [@Galactus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galactus)
#### Post date: [May 27, 2023, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/58 "2023-05-27T02:43:17Z")
> [@TBG](#):
>
> “other” timelines only happen because of sequels
Doesn’t there have to be an original timeline that existed before any time travel?
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### Author:  [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)
#### Post date: [May 27, 2023, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/59 "2023-05-27T02:51:30Z")
It’s a paradox. It’s logically self-contradictory, by definition.
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### Author:  [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)
#### Post date: [May 27, 2023, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-about-the-terminator-1984/977017/60 "2023-05-27T02:51:43Z")
Yes, but in that one Trump becomes president in 2016, and that’s just too terrible to contemplate.
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