# So are there any pieces of evidence regarding a 9/11 conspiracy which cannot be explained? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677 "2009-09-02T20:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/81 "2009-09-04T23:54:49Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I thought for years, until a recent thread here, that the spiriting away of the bin Laden family was true Details matter. The bin Laden family was helped out of the country very soon after 9/11, but the popular myth is that they flew out while the airspace was still closed on the first two or three days afterwards. That part’s not true - they flew out of the country just after the airspace was opened back up. ---
**Author:** ![ChrisBooth12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@ChrisBooth12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisBooth12)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/82 "2009-09-05T04:13:51Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Details matter. The bin Laden family was helped out of the country very soon after 9/11, but the popular myth is that they flew out while the airspace was still closed on the first two or three days afterwards. That part’s not true - they flew out of the country just after the airspace was opened back up. And after an involuntary chat with the FBI ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/83 "2009-09-05T04:22:00Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > It looks hilarious. It’s the true story about the time that Ronson spent with the guys who were in the CIA’s psychic spying program. Knew a guy who they recruited, but he was so fucked up before he was of no use. Also meant they didn’t have to pay disability, since CFU was a preexisting condition. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/84 "2009-09-05T16:25:35Z")
I was mistaken about the CIA psychic spying thing - the book was about the Army’s program. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/85 "2009-09-05T18:49:47Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Surely they at least know what planes all the other blips are. Or you’re suggesting that modern airtraffic control is ludicrously flawed? Why even have radar if it’s just, “oh, look, a whole bunch of blips making pretty pictures.” I don’t know much about air traffic control, so I hope a professional will chime in here. But if radar tracking difficulties seem implausible, I’ll note that this was only a factor for Flight 77. For the other three planes, there just wasn’t enough time between figuring out that a hijacking had taken place (or informing the military about it) and the crash for meaningful action. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/86 "2009-09-05T20:40:03Z")
It is hard to defend the conspiracies when they would require us to get about 20 Middle Easterners to give up their lives to carry it out. I don’t think that is a minimum wage job. But, the Towers fell. That does not happen very often to a burning bldg. Then a 47 story bldg. next to them went down. It was not hit by an airplane and did not get a ton of airplane fuel squirting through it. That make me wonder ,at least about some shitty design and build work. At least I know why people ask what happened. It did require a few unusual things to happen in a very short time. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/87 "2009-09-05T20:58:02Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Jon Ronson also wrote another notable book, _The Men Who Stare at Goats_. That one has just been made into a movie, to be released in November, starring George Clooney, Ewan McGregor, Kevin Spacey, and Jeff Bridges. > > The trailer can be seen here: [The Men Who Stare at Goats | IMDb](http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi2987721241/) > > It looks hilarious. It’s the true story about the time that Ronson spent with the guys who were in the CIA’s psychic spying program. Wait…Ewan McGregor, you said? > [@Philster](#): > > When a conspiracy 'theorist" such as David Icke, [David Icke - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke) , who proposes that shape-shifting extraterrestrial humanoids are responsible for the 9/11 attacks, gets a standing ovation at the University of Toronto… > > …well, ya kinda have to admit you just can’t talk sense to everyone. Oh come on! You can’t say the entertainment value alone wouldn’t be worth a standing ovation! (I’m guessing there were at least a FEW people there for a lark) > [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > As an aside, my bottom line: If it had been a govt conspiracy, they would have seen to it that George W Bush came across like a hero. He would have had a dynamic and crowd-stirring speech, he would have taken a leadership role and been man of the hour. Instead, he and Cheney went scurrying like frightened rabbits. So, the whole conspiracy thing just doesn’t make any sense. That’s just what they WANT you to think. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/88 "2009-09-05T20:58:34Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > But, the Towers fell. That does not happen very often to a burning bldg. Then a 47 story bldg. next to them went down. It was not hit by an airplane and did not get a ton of airplane fuel squirting through it. Sigh, no, it wasn’t hit by an airplane. It just got a huge flaming section of Tower 1 ripping through a couple dozen storeys of it. And then, structurally compromised, it burned unfought all day. The collapse of WTC 7 is probably the least surprising and suspicious thing that had happened since the sun came up that morning. Insisting otherwise might be acceptable if this wasn’t a widely known, witnessed, and documented fact, that has been discussed and demonstrated thoroughly right here on this message board, among many, many other places. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mr\_fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_fun)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/89 "2009-09-05T23:07:18Z")
From what I’ve seen, there is no serious positive evidence for the conspiracy view of things. They seem to always be relying on gaps, unanswered questions. It reminds me a lot of those kind of religious people who are described as having a “god of the gaps”. Once one thing is explained well within scientific terms, they move their god onto some other place. For example, if they accept the big bang, then they’ll say “ha, what caused the big bang? Must be God”. If they accept some multiverse theory where our universe is just one bubble in a sea of bubbles they’ll say “Ha, but where did this bubble bath come from? Must be God”. Many of the theorists are not working in a rational manner at all. They are anomaly hunting for something to fit their preconceived notion. They’ve already decided that the Gubmint/Jews/Masons/etc did it, so once one part of their theory gets disproved, they just move onto something else, they don’t stop to consider that maybe their idea that Gubmint/Jews/Masons/etc did it is wrong, I’m sure there are many things about 9/11 that can’t be properly explained yet, but as someone already pointed out well within the thread, a lack of evidence is not evidence for whatever you want to jam in the gaps. It was a huge event with many actors, many of them acting in a covert manner. I’m sure there will be things that are not explained in decades to come. I see little point any more trying to convince the hardcore theorists that their arguments are faulty, the best I hope for is that we can convince more of the ‘fence-sitters’ not to jump to conclusions that aren’t supported by either facts or reason. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/90 "2009-09-05T23:44:28Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > The Empire State Building survived a crash with a WWII-era bomber. It was structurally intact. Granted, a wide-body airliner is bigger and (more importantly) carries a shit-load more fuel. Nonetheless, it would appear that the towers were significantly less strong than conventional skyscrapers. The B-25 that hit the Empire State building was low on fuel at the end of a flight and the entire plane weighed substantially less than just the fuel aboard any of the flights involved with the WTC/Pentagon attacks. It was flying at less than 200 mph, in contrast to the 9/11 flights that were all exceeding 400 mph. There are structural differences between the buildings involved, but they need to be rationally examined for specific differences; a generalized comparison is, unfortunately, worth almost nothing for these cases. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/91 "2009-09-05T23:51:31Z")
> [@jakesteele](#): > > David A. Johnson, B.Arch, MCP (City Planning), PhD (Regional Planning), F.AICP – Internationally recognized architect and city and regional planner. In other words, a guy with a bachelor’s degree in architecture who then went on to mess around in a totally different field to make his living. > [@jakesteele](#): > > Professor Emeritus, Department of Urban and Regional Planning, University of Tennessee. Former Professor and Chair of the Planning Departments at Syracuse University and Ball State University. Elected Fellow, American Institute of Certified Planners (2004). Past President of the Fulbright Association of the United States. Recipient of five Fulbright Scholarships for continued education in Cyprus, India, Thailand, and the Soviet Union. Directed educational projects in Brazil and Portugal. Active in reconstruction efforts in Bosnia and bicommunal peace-making in Cyprus. Former professional planner on the staffs of the Washington National Capital Planning Commission and the Regional Plan Association of New York. Former editorial board member of the Journal of the American Planning Association. Author of numerous journal articles on urban and regional planning theory and history. Author of Planning the Great Metropolis (1996). Co-author of The TVA Regional Planning and Development Program (2005). Contributing author to Two Centuries of American Planning (1988). So, his architectural bachelor’s degree was at least 40 years old with no evidence that he actually kept up with modern building techniques since he invested his energies in city planning which is an entirely different field, branching into a lot of other worthy but irrelevant disciplines throughout the rest of his life. Obviously, his post is his cite. ---
**Author:** ![apollonius777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2bfe46/32.png) [@apollonius777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/apollonius777)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/92 "2009-09-06T05:30:08Z")
People want to find extraordinary explanations for extraordinary events. Things that THEY think couldn’t happen without looking into the dimensions of the event. So, absolutely not. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/93 "2009-09-06T05:53:30Z")
> [@apollonius777](#): > > People want to find extraordinary explanations for extraordinary events. Things that THEY think couldn’t happen without looking into the dimensions of the event. So, absolutely not. I wish I had more of an education in psychology than a few undergrad classes. I’ve a hypothesis-- built on interacting with enough of these people online and off-- that firm, sustained (meaning it’s not just a phase you go through) belief in conspiracy theories is some kind of mental illness. Has anyone else ever noticed that no one believes just one of these? There aren’t any guys out there who say “yeah, 9/11 was an inside job, but Oswald definitely killed Kennedy, we went to the M-Effin moon, and Bohemian Grove is just a place for rich schlubs to blow off steam.” It’s always a package deal that seems to suggest some other-than-obvious cause. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/94 "2009-09-06T15:28:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Then a 47 story bldg. next to them went down. It was not hit by an airplane and did not get a ton of airplane fuel squirting through it. That make me wonder ,at least about some shitty design and build work. It’s not the fact that it fell that troubles me, but the incredible symmetry with which it did so. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/95 "2009-09-06T18:01:45Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > It’s not the fact that it fell that troubles me, but the incredible symmetry with which it did so. Goal posts never get a moment’s rest in your hands, do they? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/96 "2009-09-06T18:52:52Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > It’s not the fact that it fell that troubles me, but the incredible symmetry with which it did so. Tower, tower, burning bright? ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/97 "2009-09-06T19:19:12Z")
Cisco, of all people, starts talking about goal posts… I was just pointing out that the “nothing hit WTC7, so why’d it fall down” is a very vague thing to say. That may or may not be suspicious. But the near-perfect symmetry of its collapse is much more telling, since it’s very hard to imagine circumstances where a large and wide structure would transmit force over the entire distance of its span within a fraction of a second, and that the force prove critical to all regions. If someone wants to be puzzled by some element of 9/11, they should be puzzled by the right thing… ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/98 "2009-09-06T19:38:55Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Cisco, of all people, starts talking about goal posts… Really? Of all people? I know you can’t defend this statement, but, care to look silly trying? > [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > I was just pointing out that the “nothing hit WTC7, so why’d it fall down” is a very vague thing to say. That may or may not be suspicious. No, it most certainly may not be, and you know it. I trust I don’t have to explain this for the 100th time on this very message board. Just look up a few posts. I’ve posted videos of it being hit in threads you were actively participating in. I know you’ve seen them. You’re trying to engineer smoke where you know good and well there is no fire. > [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > But the near-perfect symmetry of its collapse is much more telling, since it’s very hard to imagine circumstances where a large and wide structure would transmit force over the entire distance of its span within a fraction of a second, and that the force prove critical to all regions. If someone wants to be puzzled by some element of 9/11, they should be puzzled by the right thing… Much more telling of what, and where did you come by your authority on the topic? You’re not saying that just because it doesn’t look like what YOU imagine it SHOULD look like in your completely untrained mind, that it’s “suspicious” (suspicious of what?), are you? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/99 "2009-09-06T20:18:04Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > It’s not the fact that it fell that troubles me, but the incredible symmetry with which it did so. The whole plot was just to cover up the bombing of WT7. The planes, the cruise missle, the dynamite in the the towers: all of it was just so that they could blow up WT7 because it had proof that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. Does anyone know where Tom Hanks was on 911? So right there is an unanswered question. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677/100 "2009-09-07T15:33:57Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You’re not saying that just because it doesn’t look like what YOU imagine it SHOULD look like in your completely untrained mind, that it’s “suspicious” (suspicious of what?), are you? While objections to the collapse behavior of the twin towers can be chalked up to “what they should have looked like,” in the case of WTC7 it’s possible to be a bit more concrete. In its collapse, you can see a crease formed in the center. The crease is leading the rest of the collapse by some small fraction of a second. If the collapse started as a chain reaction emanating from the crease, it would have to radiate a distance of up to 70 meters within that fraction of a second. For the sake of argument let us say the time delta is 0.2s. That comes out to a propagation velocity of 350 m/s, or approximately the speed of sound in air. Likewise, the symmetry implies something else. That every point in the building was supercritically weakened. A part of the building was hit by a girder, and other parts sustained heavy fires. However _all_ parts had to be on the verge of collapse. But _none_ past the verge. It is like a coffee mug in a microwave, evenly heated to 101C ready to burst into vapor. Introduce non-uniform conditions, such as a scratched vessel or an uneven gas stove (or a falling girder), and you cannot attain supercriticality without some part changing phase first. [Obligatory collapse vid.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQeQi5XXfz0) But what’s the use of arguing with you. You’re the one who took a sympathetic conclusion (“it’s difficult to say that the collapse of WTC7, in itself, is very suspicious”) and tried turning it into a point to attack me on. Really? Sigh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-there-any-pieces-of-evidence-regarding-a-9-11-conspiracy-which-cannot-be-explained/508677.md?page=6)