# So are this kid's parents going to kill her, or what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636 "2009-08-25T15:17:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/41 "2009-08-25T17:06:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes. Really? What else does Jesus want people to do? Does he have your phone number or something? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/42 "2009-08-25T17:07:43Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Nothing is astonishing about it it just renders the word islamophobic inert. It means your use of it is a meaningless slogan devoid of content, a mere epithet. How so? Why can’t a former Muslim become Islamophobic? Especially when it’s a kid under the influence of a cult. Islam is not a race, you know. > [@](#): > > Right, and I am sure this all occurs in a vacuum because normal healthy people who love their parents are immediately susceptible to such brainwashing. It happens all the time. It happened to one of my brothers. It happens a hell of a lot more often than westernized Muslims “honor killing” their children, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/43 "2009-08-25T17:07:56Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > This sounds pretty accurate to me, except the “magick” part. And I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make by saying that she couldn’t have been “normal and healthy” if she was susceptible to cult recruitment tactics. If she _was_ having family problems or feeling depressed or whatnot – as many teens do – then it makes the cult even shittier for taking advantage of her and turning her against her family. Well I’m convinced. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > The more I hear about this story, the less it seems like a Muslims vs. Christians issue and the more it seems like a brainwashing cult issue. And how long have you been following this story? Half an hour? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/44 "2009-08-25T17:10:54Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Could be teenage rebellion stoked by outside influences though, couldn’t it? Yes, of course it could, just as everyone accused me of when I rebelled against my parents who beat me. > [@](#): > > Teenagers do crazy shit to piss off Mommy and Daddy all the time. This “concern for her safety” bit is romantic and dramatic and makes her into a hero/potential martyr. She may not be Islamophobic, but she may well have an axe to grind against her parents, and this Christian cult gives her the perfect way to do it, with a cover story that will make her look like the good guy in the eyes of many. I feel sorry for her parents, who are probably just folks with a bratty daughter who is very much humiliating them in a public and possibly dangerous way. That’s what I was told as a child not just by my parents but by state authorities when I complained about being whipped with a leather strap and beaten with telephones. > [@](#): > > ETA: A “troubled” family situation could be that her parents enforce a curfew, or want her to get better grades and took away her Blackberry, or whatever. It doesn’t mean they beat her with a belt, necessarily. Teenagers can be very histrionic and extreme when they are lashing out at their parents for perceived slights. And it doesn’t mean that they don’t. I’d think that as a teacher (and don’t take this as a criticism of your profession) you’d take it a little more seriously when a child is willing to undergo extreme measures to get away from parents. Healthy normal kids in a stable environment, mostly, do not run away and join a cult on the other side of the country. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/45 "2009-08-25T17:13:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How so? Why can’t a former Muslim become Islamophobic? Especially when it’s a kid under the influence of a cult. Islam is not a race, you know. The bit about race is a non-sequitur that makes no sense so I am not even going to respond to it. No, I don’t think a child of Muslim parents can be islamophobic if they were raised in that environment. If she’s Islamophobic then all of our forum atheists who used to be Christians are Christophobic. A phobia is an irrational fear that is not based in any sort of real issue. People who are agorophobic are afraid of open spaces, not because open spaces did something to them, they just are, it makes no sense, it’s irrational. People who reject their family’s religion generally are not phobic because they have known people of htat religion and grown up around them, so it’s different. > [@](#): > > It happens all the time. It happened to one of my brothers. That explains a lot. > [@](#): > > It happens a hell of a lot more often than westernized Muslims “honor killing” their children, that’s for sure. Maybe you are just Christophobic? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/46 "2009-08-25T17:14:18Z")
Not enough evidence to support the “Islamophobic” label, but there’s a definite apocalyptic cult-y vibe to their [website](http://www.globalrevolutionchurch.org/), particularly the list of “Values,” and in particular shit like: > [@Global Revolution Church Website](#): > > 1. We believe in global preparation for the return of Jesus Christ, especially through 24/7 prayer and worship and through raising up end-time messengers. > > … > > 1. We believe Israel is the prophetic key to the return of Jesus Christ. > 2. We believe in signs and wonders that confirm that Jesus Christ is Lord. It would hardly be surprising if they had a decided anti-Muslim bent, but if so they’re cagey enough not to state it outright. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/47 "2009-08-25T17:14:45Z")
**mswas** , did you accuse your parents of trying to kill you for apostasy? Do you think it would have been reasonable for you to do so? Look, I’m sorry you had such a shitty and abusive upbringing. But you’re projecting your own experiences onto this kid. You got beaten by your parents, so you’re assuming that she must have been beaten by her parents. This kid got picked up by a cult, and the only thing that’s really clear is that she’s now in the care of crazy people who believe that they are involved in some kind of Christian-Muslim holy warfare. This does not speak well to the accuracy of anything she has to say about her prior family life – and the only thing she’s said, as far as I can tell, is that now that she’s a Christian, her family wants to kill her. No mention has been made of leather belts, beatings with telephones, etc. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/48 "2009-08-25T17:17:08Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > **mswas** , did you accuse your parents of trying to kill you for apostasy? Do you think it would have been reasonable for you to do so? No but my parents didn’t follow a religion whose holy law says you should kill apostates. > [@](#): > > Look, I’m sorry you had such a shitty and abusive upbringing. But you’re projecting your own experiences onto this kid. You got beaten by your parents, so you’re assuming that she must have been beaten by her parents. This kid got picked up by a cult, and the only thing that’s really clear is that she’s now in the care of crazy people who believe that they are involved in some kind of Christian-Muslim holy warfare. This does not speak well to the accuracy of anything she has to say about her prior family life – and the only thing she’s said, as far as I can tell, is that now that she’s a Christian, her family wants to kill her. No mention has been made of leather belts, beatings with telephones, etc. No, I’m not projecting my own experiences onto this kid. I am saying that if she ran away, there’s probably a reason. I am not assuming anything about her situation. I am saying we should give her the benefit of the doubt before simply assuming, Muslim good, Christian bad. The point of bringing up my experiences is that I was really actually being abused and I had people from all over society telling me to suck it up and get over it. Just like you people are doing. This girl says she fears for her life but you just assume that its evil Christian mind-control magicks rather than maybe she actually has a reason. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/49 "2009-08-25T17:18:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Usually there is a personal reason. People don’t just join cults in a vacuum. So what? > [@](#): > > Oh so now you admit the family situation might be troubled. What family isn’t? > [@](#): > > How troubled do you think it is exactly? I mean troubled as in maybe they don’t pay enough attention to her, troubled as in they beat her with a leather strap for not finishing dinner or troubled as in the Father might kill his daughter for Apostasy? Is there some sort of sliding scale that we can use so that we can understand your particular insight into just how troubled the family is so that we can determine from the comfort of our computer desks just how troubled this family might be so that we can know that the evil Christians are really evil whereas the evil Muslims aren’t really evil at all they are just ‘troubled’? It could be any or all or none of the above. Trouble isn’t necessary, it’s just common, and with teenagers, the trouble doesn’t have to amount to much at all. The trouble doesn’t even have to come from the family. Kids who are picked on or harrassed at school can be susceptible. I still don’t know what attracted my brother to a cult. I do know that my parents weren’t threatening to kill him. It’s a pretty stupid leap to assume that every kid who gets sucked into a cult must be doing so because their parents want to kill them. ETA, your whole “evil Christian” assumptions about me are completely in your imagination. The nominal religious affiliations of the parties involved do not matter to me. I have not said that Christians are evil. I don’t see it that way. I see a cult breaking up a family. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/50 "2009-08-25T17:20:11Z")
My point is, if a kid is saying they are being abused, there’s a good chance that they actually are. It’s very telling about people’s mindsets that they assume automatically that she is being raped by the Christians she is living with. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/51 "2009-08-25T17:21:20Z")
She’s not saying she was being abused. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/52 "2009-08-25T17:22:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So what? Umm, it’s pretty fucking relevant to know why she would join that cult over her own family. > [@](#): > > What family isn’t? There’s troubled and there is troubled. > [@](#): > > It could be any or all or none of the above. Trouble isn’t necessary, it’s just common, and with teenagers, the trouble doesn’t have to amount to much at all. The trouble doesn’t even have to come from the family. Kids who are picked on or harrassed at school can be susceptible. I still don’t know what attracted my brother to a cult. I do know that my parents weren’t threatening to kill him. It’s a pretty stupid leap to assume that every kid who gets sucked into a cult must be doing so because their parents want to kill them. It’s not common actually. Not at all common. Did your brother say that your parents were trying to kill him? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/53 "2009-08-25T17:23:29Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > She’s not saying she was being abused. She says she fears for her life. And you all are flippantly dismissing it. I think if she hadn’t joined a Christian church and instead had gone off to be a hooker you’d be much more sympathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/54 "2009-08-25T17:25:39Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, of course it could, just as everyone accused me of when I rebelled against my parents who beat me. OK, so you’re clearly projecting your personal issues onto this story. This is hardly a sterling example of your ability to view this situation objectively. You have ZERO evidence that this is an abused child. If you do, it’s not in evidence in the OP’s link, so please produce it and stop making it all about you. > [@](#): > > And it doesn’t mean that they don’t. I’d think that as a teacher (and don’t take this as a criticism of your profession) :rolleyes: God am I tired of that little salvo every time someone wants to score a point in a debate. Spare me your ideas of what I should do or think because of your ideas of what a teacher should be like, which of course just happen to jibe with your point of view. It’s not an effective debate tactic. > [@](#): > > you’d take it a little more seriously when a child is willing to undergo extreme measures to get away from parents. Healthy normal kids in a stable environment, mostly, do not run away and join a cult on the other side of the country. Just saying. As a teacher, I’ve seen kids do and say some crazy shit when their parents piss them off. This girl hasn’t claimed that her father beat her, nor that she was fleeing ongoing child abuse. You made that up, or projected it onto her, because I’m sure if she had that kind of ammo to use against them, she would have used it by now to prevent her return home. Her parents are pissed off that she converted to Christianity, and they probably yelled at her and were upset about it. That I can believe, and I can understand it, because I can imagine the freaking out that would have ensued in my family if, say, I decided to convert to Islam at 17. It’s not a sign that they are murderous religious wackos that they are pissed that their daughter is abandoning the family religion. It’s how a lot of families would react, frankly. All the rest of it? That her father has seriously stated that he actually intends to kill her? Her word against his, and she is being manipulated by some pretty bigoted folks who are using her to score points in the culture wars. I’m sure a thorough investigation will be made into the family situation, since this is major public issue, but I doubt this is what the girl is making it sound like it is. I could be wrong, but then again, so could you. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/55 "2009-08-25T17:28:56Z")
The girl actually said that her father said that she was “dead to him.” Now, I’m not an expert, but I’m pretty sure that when you say “You are dead to me,” you are not actually indicating that you are about to go get the pickaxe and start a-swingin’. Not a very nice thing to say, no, but 1) not abusive, and 2) not an actual death threat. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/56 "2009-08-25T17:30:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The bit about race is a non-sequitur that makes no sense so I am not even going to respond to it. I only said that because I couldn’t fathom why you thought a former Muslim couldn’t be brainwashed to hate Islam. > [@](#): > > No, I don’t think a child of Muslim parents can be islamophobic if they were raised in that environment. Why not? Can a child of Christian parents grow up to hate Christianity? > [@](#): > > If she’s Islamophobic then all of our forum atheists who used to be Christians are Christophobic. Some of them may be, but it is not the mere conversion that makes one phobic. The specific church that this kid joined is explicitly Islamophobic. The pastor who recruited her has said so in no uncertain terms. They think that Islam as a whole is “evil,” and that Christians are in a holy war with Islam. > [@](#): > > A phobia is an irrational fear that is not based in any sort of real issue. People who are agorophobic are afraid of open spaces, not because open spaces did something to them, they just are, it makes no sense, it’s irrational. People who reject their family’s religion generally are not phobic because they have known people of htat religion and grown up around them, so it’s different. I didn’t say she was Islamophobic for converting to Christianity. The specific church she _joined_ is Islamophobic. > [@](#): > > Maybe you are just Christophobic? That would explain why I’m married to a Catholic and send my kids to a Catholic school, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/57 "2009-08-25T17:32:05Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Wait – what? Imagine? So is this story based entirely on conjecture? Apparently, this all came from blogs she wrote, describing how she feared for her life. So then I thought, Wait a minute. Are her parents _actually_ going to kill her, or is this just fear dreamt up by the Christians who converted her? Has the family ever said anything about killing her? Have they ever expressed disapproval of her new religion? The only thing I’ve been able to get that even resembles a statement from the family is this: “I love my daughter and I want her to come back to the family,” he said, declining further comment. Well, it’s pretty clear that the girl has actually claimed there was an explicit threat of death, so it’s not merely conjecture. On the the other hand, she wouldn’t be the first teenager to offer up hyperbolically-charged claims in an effort to get her way. > [@treis](#): > > It’s really difficult for me to believe that a Muslim lenient enough to allow his daughter to be a cheerleader would be dogmatic enough to kill her for converting. Agreed. This doesn’t seem to fit the profile I have in my mind of honor-killing-bent families. But… > [@Diogenes](#): > > I’ll be open to any actual evidence. Until then, it’s baseless, Islamophobic bullshit. Certainly no reason has been shown why the Newlins and their Light of Day cult should be able to prevent her from going home to her parents. So are you suggesting what should be done here is immediately return the girl to her parents? And would your opinion be any different if the girl was fleeing from a Christian family after her announcement that she had become a Wiccan? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/58 "2009-08-25T17:33:54Z")
Man nobody can take a thread into crazy town like Diogenes can. I’m wavering between being impressed at his ability to come up with crazy shit and being sad that he is so predictable. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/59 "2009-08-25T17:35:12Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > OK, so you’re clearly projecting your personal issues onto this story. This is hardly a sterling example of your ability to view this situation objectively. You have ZERO evidence that this is an abused child. If you do, it’s not in evidence in the OP’s link, so please produce it and stop making it all about you. And you have zero evidence to the contrary. The difference between us is I am not making an assumption one way or the other. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: God am I tired of that little salvo every time someone wants to score a point in a debate. Spare me your ideas of what I should do or think because of your ideas of what a teacher should be like, which of course just happen to jibe with your point of view. It’s not an effective debate tactic. I see, so then you are just like the cop that told me it’s a parents prerogative to beat their kids with whatever they feel like beating them with. > [@](#): > > As a teacher, I’ve seen kids do and say some crazy shit when their parents piss them off. This girl hasn’t claimed that her father beat her, nor that she was fleeing ongoing child abuse. You made that up, or projected it onto her, because I’m sure if she had that kind of ammo to use against them, she would have used it by now to prevent her return home. Her parents are pissed off that she converted to Christianity, and they probably yelled at her and were upset about it. That I can believe, and I can understand it, because I can imagine the freaking out that would have ensued in my family if, say, I decided to convert to Islam at 17. It’s not a sign that they are murderous religious wackos that they are pissed that their daughter is abandoning the family religion. It’s how a lot of families would react, frankly. I was pissed off at my parents and at no point did I ever fear for my life, and they did some pretty heinous shit. If someone is claiming they fear for their life that’s a pretty serious allegation and shouldn’t be taken likely, even if the keyword ‘Christian’ causes your knee to jerk. I didn’t say she fled ongoing child abuse, I said it warrants and investigation. Your strawman style is as tedious as ever. > [@](#): > > All the rest of it? That her father has seriously stated that he actually intends to kill her? Her word against his, and she is being manipulated by some pretty bigoted folks who are using her to score points in the culture wars. I’m sure a thorough investigation will be made into the family situation, since this is major public issue, but I doubt this is what the girl is making it sound like it is. I could be wrong, but then again, so could you. Yeah, her word against his, and you are making assumptions about the people she is staying with. I can’t be wrong because I haven’t formed an opinion. You of course might be wrong as you’ve formed an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636/60 "2009-08-25T17:38:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So are you suggesting what should be done here is immediately return the girl to her parents? I think that an investigation needs to be done to confirm, but I don’t find the danger to her credible. I will say, however, that she needs to be removed from these Church people immediately and an investigation launched into their role. It seems inappropriate for these adults to establish such a relationship with an underage girl that she would flee into their care. Then not reporting it for 3 weeks and the nutter quotes from this guy raise my suspicions very high. > [@Bricker](#): > > And would your opinion be any different if the girl was fleeing from a Christian family after her announcement that she had become a Wiccan? In this case we should immediately arrest the Christian family and let them rot in jail for their horrible crimes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-are-this-kids-parents-going-to-kill-her-or-what/507636.md?page=4)