# So...Atlantis found in southern Spain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926 "2011-03-16T15:33:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926/41 "2011-03-21T22:06:47Z")
Anyway, I don’t think any excavations of Atlantis should be undertaken without the express consent of Prince Namor. We don’t want any unfortunate incidents. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926/42 "2011-03-22T00:41:03Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I thought that was based on the wreck of the Sea Venture on Bermuda. > **[Cuttyhunk Island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuttyhunk)** > > Cuttyhunk Island is the outermost of the Elizabeth Islands in Massachusetts. A small outpost for the harvesting of sassafras was occupied for a few weeks in 1602, arguably making it the first English settlement in New England. Cuttyhunk is located between Buzzards Bay to the north and Vineyard Sound to the south. Penikese Island and Nashawena Island are located to the north and east respectively. > The island has a land area of 580 acres (0.91 sq mi; 2.3 km2), and an estimated population of 10 re... To be honest, I just know about the Roanoke suggestion because I spend time on Cuttyhunk. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926/43 "2011-03-22T15:14:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Nava, have you ever been there? Do many people visit the park? Didn’t look like there was much there to me from the show, but it’s hard to tell. > > -XT Doñana is the most famous national park in Spain - while I doubt most foreigners would be able to name one, much less two, Spanish national parks, the majority of Spaniards would answer “¿parque nacional deeee?” with “Doñana”. I’ve driven through Hinojos on my way to Cádiz, but since I like salt flats and swamps about as much as I like toothaches (I’m more of a mountains kind of girl), I haven’t bothered with the visits. My mother visited Doñana two years ago, while on vacation in a Huelva beach village. It’s… a salt flat. There’s reeds. And water. And more reeds. And water. And cranes of different kinds (including flamingos). And water. And more reeds. Lots of biological importance, but I’m afraid I’m one of those people who can’t really be bothered much about that particular kind of biologically important landscape. **Attacks** , I don’t have better coordinates handy; most Spanish references to the excavations of Tartesos talk about either the city of Cádiz or about Doñana, they don’t even bother be so specific as to name Hinojos. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926/44 "2011-03-22T23:17:18Z")
Thanks **Nava**. I appreciate the thought. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926/45 "2011-03-23T14:33:35Z")
I’ve always thought that if Atlantis existed it was in S.America on land which is now the Amazonian rain forest. An Egyptian mummy was found with traces of cocaine and tobacco, though it could be contamination. You have the pyramids both sides of the Atlantic thing. There are traces of settlements under the Amazon forest. And the Atlantic isn’t that hard to cross. I don’t put this forward as a cast iron, serious theory, but more as a whimsy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926/46 "2011-03-23T15:25:31Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I’ve always thought that if Atlantis existed it was in S.America on land which is now the Amazonian rain forest. > > An Egyptian mummy was found with traces of cocaine and tobacco, though it could be contamination. > > You have the pyramids both sides of the Atlantic thing. > > There are traces of settlements under the Amazon forest. > > And the Atlantic isn’t that hard to cross. > I don’t put this forward as a cast iron, serious theory, but more as a whimsy. [You’re not the only one.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl) I wouldn’t interpret New World pyramids as evidence of any ancient contact with Egypt. A pyramid is not a complicated thing. Dump a few baskets of dirt on the ground until you have a mound of dirt; square off the sides, you’ve got yourself a pyramid – a very, very stable structure that can’t collapse any further; now built it big in stone. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926/47 "2011-03-23T15:37:18Z")
Interesting fact - Herodotus mentions the city of Tartessus. “…they were driven past the Pillars of Hercules, and at last, by some special guiding providence, reached **Tartessus**. This trading town was in those days a virgin port, unfrequented by the merchants. The Samians, in consequence, made by the return voyage a profit greater than any Greeks before their day, excepting Sostratus, son of Laodamas, an Eginetan, with whom no one else can compare” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926/48 "2011-03-24T15:31:05Z")
From the [_Timaeus:_](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1572/1572-h/1572-h.htm) > [@](#): > > HERMOCRATES: ‘We will do our best, and have been already preparing; for on our way home, Critias told us of an ancient tradition, which I wish, Critias, that you would repeat to Socrates.’ ‘I will, if Timaeus approves.’ ‘I approve.’ Listen then, Socrates, to a tale of Solon’s, who, being the friend of Dropidas my great-grandfather, told it to my grandfather Critias, and he told me. The narrative related to ancient famous actions of the Athenian people, and to one especially, which I will rehearse in honour of you and of the goddess. Critias when he told this tale of the olden time, was ninety years old, I being not more than ten. The occasion of the rehearsal was the day of the Apaturia called the Registration of Youth, at which our parents gave prizes for recitation. Some poems of Solon were recited by the boys. They had not at that time gone out of fashion, and the recital of them led some one to say, perhaps in compliment to Critias, that Solon was not only the wisest of men but also the best of poets. The old man brightened up at hearing this, and said: Had Solon only had the leisure which was required to complete the famous legend which he brought with him from Egypt he would have been as distinguished as Homer and Hesiod. ‘And what was the subject of the poem?’ said the person who made the remark. The subject was a very noble one; he described the most famous action in which the Athenian people were ever engaged. But the memory of their exploits has passed away owing to the lapse of time and the extinction of the actors. ‘Tell us,’ said the other, ‘the whole story, and where Solon heard the story.’ He replied—There is at the head of the Egyptian Delta, where the river Nile divides, a city and district called Sais; the city was the birthplace of King Amasis, and is under the protection of the goddess Neith or Athene. The citizens have a friendly feeling towards the Athenians, believing themselves to be related to them. Hither came Solon, and was received with honour; and here he first learnt, by conversing with the Egyptian priests, how ignorant he and his countrymen were of antiquity. Perceiving this, and with the view of eliciting information from them, he told them the tales of Phoroneus and Niobe, and also of Deucalion and Pyrrha, and he endeavoured to count the generations which had since passed. Thereupon an aged priest said to him: ‘O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are ever young, and there is no old man who is a Hellene.’ ‘What do you mean?’ he asked. ‘In mind,’ replied the priest, ‘I mean to say that you are children; there is no opinion or tradition of knowledge among you which is white with age; and I will tell you why. Like the rest of mankind you have suffered from convulsions of nature, which are chiefly brought about by the two great agencies of fire and water. The former is symbolized in the Hellenic tale of young Phaethon who drove his father’s horses the wrong way, and having burnt up the earth was himself burnt up by a thunderbolt. For there occurs at long intervals a derangement of the heavenly bodies, and then the earth is destroyed by fire. At such times, and when fire is the agent, those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore are safer than those who dwell upon high and dry places, who in their turn are safer when the danger is from water. Now the Nile is our saviour from fire, and as there is little rain in Egypt, we are not harmed by water; whereas in other countries, when a deluge comes, the inhabitants are swept by the rivers into the sea. The memorials which your own and other nations have once had of the famous actions of mankind perish in the waters at certain periods; and the rude survivors in the mountains begin again, knowing nothing of the world before the flood. But in Egypt the traditions of our own and other lands are by us registered for ever in our temples. The genealogies which you have recited to us out of your own annals, Solon, are a mere children’s story. For in the first place, you remember one deluge only, and there were many of them, and you know nothing of that fairest and noblest race of which you are a seed or remnant. The memory of them was lost, because there was no written voice among you. For in the times before the great flood Athens was the greatest and best of cities and did the noblest deeds and had the best constitution of any under the face of heaven.’ Solon marvelled, and desired to be informed of the particulars. ‘You are welcome to hear them,’ said the priest, ‘both for your own sake and for that of the city, and above all for the sake of the goddess who is the common foundress of both our cities. Nine thousand years have elapsed since she founded yours, and eight thousand since she founded ours, as our annals record. Many laws exist among us which are the counterpart of yours as they were in the olden time. I will briefly describe them to you, and you shall read the account of them at your leisure in the sacred registers. In the first place, there was a caste of priests among the ancient Athenians, and another of artisans; also castes of shepherds, hunters, and husbandmen, and lastly of warriors, who, like the warriors of Egypt, were separated from the rest, and carried shields and spears, a custom which the goddess first taught you, and then the Asiatics, and we among Asiatics first received from her. Observe again, what care the law took in the pursuit of wisdom, searching out the deep things of the world, and applying them to the use of man. The spot of earth which the goddess chose had the best of climates, and produced the wisest men; in no other was she herself, the philosopher and warrior goddess, so likely to have votaries. And there you dwelt as became the children of the gods, excelling all men in virtue, and many famous actions are recorded of you. The most famous of them all was the overthrow of the island of Atlantis. This great island lay over against the Pillars of Heracles, in extent greater than Libya and Asia put together, and was the passage to other islands and to a great ocean of which the Mediterranean sea was only the harbour; and within the Pillars the empire of Atlantis reached in Europe to Tyrrhenia and in Libya to Egypt. This mighty power was arrayed against Egypt and Hellas and all the countries bordering on the Mediterranean. Then your city did bravely, and won renown over the whole earth. For at the peril of her own existence, and when the other Hellenes had deserted her, she repelled the invader, and of her own accord gave liberty to all the nations within the Pillars. A little while afterwards there were great earthquakes and floods, and your warrior race all sank into the earth; and the great island of Atlantis also disappeared in the sea. This is the explanation of the shallows which are found in that part of the Atlantic ocean.’ > > Such was the tale, Socrates, which Critias heard from Solon; and I noticed when listening to you yesterday, how close the resemblance was between your city and citizens and the ancient Athenian State. But I would not speak at the time, because I wanted to refresh my memory. I had heard the old man when I was a child, and though I could not remember the whole of our yesterday’s discourse, I was able to recall every word of this, which is branded into my mind; and I am prepared, Socrates, to rehearse to you the entire narrative. The imaginary State which you were describing may be identified with the reality of Solon, and our antediluvian ancestors may be your citizens. ‘That is excellent, Critias, and very appropriate to a Panathenaic festival; the truth of the story is a great advantage.’ Then now let me explain to you the order of our entertainment; first, Timaeus, who is a natural philosopher, will speak of the origin of the world, going down to the creation of man, and then I shall receive the men whom he has created, and some of whom will have been educated by you, and introduce them to you as the lost Athenian citizens of whom the Egyptian record spoke. As the law of Solon prescribes, we will bring them into court and acknowledge their claims to citizenship. ‘I see,’ replied Socrates, ‘that I shall be well entertained; and do you, Timaeus, offer up a prayer and begin.’ The [dialogue,](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1572/1572-h/1572-h.htm) which is mainly about cosmology, makes no further mention of Atlantis. Note that there is no description at all of Atlantean government, society or culture – it is simply a powerful state that once threatened Greece. The only “ideal state” in this story is ancient-even-to-Plato Athens. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926/49 "2011-03-24T15:39:48Z")
More details are given in the unfinished dialogue [_Critias:_](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1571/1571-h/1571-h.htm) > [@](#): > > As to the population, each of the lots in the plain had to find a leader for the men who were fit for military service, and the size of a lot was a square of ten stadia each way, and the total number of all the lots was sixty thousand. And of the inhabitants of the mountains and of the rest of the country there was also a vast multitude, which was distributed among the lots and had leaders assigned to them according to their districts and villages. The leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth portion of a war-chariot, so as to make up a total of ten thousand chariots; also two horses and riders for them, and a pair of chariot-horses without a seat, accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a small shield, and having a charioteer who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; also, he was bound to furnish two heavy-armed soldiers, two archers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships. Such was the military order of the royal city—the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences. > > As to offices and honours, the following was the arrangement from the first. Each of the ten kings in his own division and in his own city had the absolute control of the citizens, and, in most cases, of the laws, punishing and slaying whomsoever he would. Now the order of precedence among them and their mutual relations were regulated by the commands of Poseidon which the law had handed down. These were inscribed by the first kings on a pillar of orichalcum, which was situated in the middle of the island, at the temple of Poseidon, whither the kings were gathered together every fifth and every sixth year alternately, thus giving equal honour to the odd and to the even number. And when they were gathered together they consulted about their common interests, and enquired if any one had transgressed in anything, and passed judgment, and before they passed judgment they gave their pledges to one another on this wise:—There were bulls who had the range of the temple of Poseidon; and the ten kings, being left alone in the temple, after they had offered prayers to the god that they might capture the victim which was acceptable to him, hunted the bulls, without weapons, but with staves and nooses; and the bull which they caught they led up to the pillar and cut its throat over the top of it so that the blood fell upon the sacred inscription. Now on the pillar, besides the laws, there was inscribed an oath invoking mighty curses on the disobedient. When therefore, after slaying the bull in the accustomed manner, they had burnt its limbs, they filled a bowl of wine and cast in a clot of blood for each of them; the rest of the victim they put in the fire, after having purified the column all round. Then they drew from the bowl in golden cups, and pouring a libation on the fire, they swore that they would judge according to the laws on the pillar, and would punish him who in any point had already transgressed them, and that for the future they would not, if they could help, offend against the writing on the pillar, and would neither command others, nor obey any ruler who commanded them, to act otherwise than according to the laws of their father Poseidon. This was the prayer which each of them offered up for himself and for his descendants, at the same time drinking and dedicating the cup out of which he drank in the temple of the god; and after they had supped and satisfied their needs, when darkness came on, and the fire about the sacrifice was cool, all of them put on most beautiful azure robes, and, sitting on the ground, at night, over the embers of the sacrifices by which they had sworn, and extinguishing all the fire about the temple, they received and gave judgment, if any of them had an accusation to bring against any one; and when they had given judgment, at daybreak they wrote down their sentences on a golden tablet, and dedicated it together with their robes to be a memorial. > > There were many special laws affecting the several kings inscribed about the temples, but the most important was the following: They were not to take up arms against one another, and they were all to come to the rescue if any one in any of their cities attempted to overthrow the royal house; like their ancestors, they were to deliberate in common about war and other matters, giving the supremacy to the descendants of Atlas. And the king was not to have the power of life and death over any of his kinsmen unless he had the assent of the majority of the ten. > > Such was the vast power which the god settled in the lost island of Atlantis; and this he afterwards directed against our land for the following reasons, as tradition tells: For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, and well-affectioned towards the god, whose seed they were; for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another. They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them. By such reflections and by the continuance in them of a divine nature, the qualities which we have described grew and increased among them; but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power. Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows—[li] [/li] > \* The rest of the Dialogue of Critias has been lost. Whatever this society is, it ain’t Minoan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926/50 "2011-03-24T15:47:41Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Interesting fact - Herodotus mentions the city of Tartessus. “…they were driven past the Pillars of Hercules, and at last, by some special guiding providence, reached **Tartessus**. This trading town was in those days a virgin port, unfrequented by the merchants. The Samians, in consequence, made by the return voyage a profit greater than any Greeks before their day, excepting Sostratus, son of Laodamas, an Eginetan, with whom no one else can compare” See also 2 Chronicles 9:21: “For the king’s [Solomon’s] ships went to Tarshish with the servants of Hiram: once every three years came the ships of Tarshish bringing gold and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.” You could get apes from southern Spain, then (there are still some in Gibraltar) . . . I don’t know about ivory or peacocks. An alternative theory is that “Tarshish” is [Tarsus.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarsus_(city)) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926/51 "2011-03-24T19:36:15Z")
Well here’s a [Newsweek article on Atlantis in Spain](http://www.newsweek.com/2011/03/20/swallowed-by-the-sea.html). The magazine article features a satellite image that does show concentric rings quite clearly. Oddly, the online article omits that image, and the coordinates given in the online article don’t take you to that image as promised. So I dunno. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-atlantis-found-in-southern-spain/574926.md?page=2)