# So begbert2 what is actually worthy of being called a service? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301 "2018-11-30T00:09:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/21 "2018-11-30T00:59:09Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > But not all forms of work are “service”, in common usage. > > I simply do not agree with the common propagandized notion that military work is a type of work that can fairly be characterized as service. Aren’t they called the Armed _Services_? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/22 "2018-11-30T01:04:47Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Why is it an insult if I fail to praise somebody for their military “service”? Why should anybody care what _I_ think? > > And barring…something, it presumably would have sunk beneath the surface without a ripple. > > (…and lest the fun end, it’s now time for me to head home for the day.) It was the thread you dropped the turd into, not the turd itself. In context of that thread, quite insulting and if you thought about it, likely to get a rise out of people. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/23 "2018-11-30T01:12:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Helping people for free, obviously. Your unpaid criteria still means the US reserve components have large numbers serving every month. Leaders put in large amounts of time outside that one weekend a month and two weeks a year where they are being paid. I could easily put in 40+ hours a month outside my drill weekend. Even some of my junior enlisted would get in on the game and help with things like mission prep before the required report time or things like color guards. The term we usually used to describe our pay status for those types of missions was “for the flag.” ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/24 "2018-11-30T01:19:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > But not all forms of work are “service”, in common usage. Certainly, they are. As others have pointed out, the “public service” is a common term for the workforce and undertaking of the entirel public sector; everyone working in the public sector is a public servant engaged in public service. Workers in the private sector are also commonly spoken of as being engaged in service, and the thread already abounds with examples of this usage. Waiters and shop assistants serve customers; what they do is, by definition, service. Employees in pretty well any position can measure the length of their service in that position. Etc, etc. In fact, if there’s a usage of “service” which excludes particular forms of work, I’m not familiar with it. Can you point to any actual real-world examples of this usage? ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/25 "2018-11-30T01:20:14Z")
Well. It’s not really benevolent service but it might be the regular kind though. Ties in with servitude as well, so maybe there’s a connection. They serve the United States military and its interests; they dont serve my interests directly, they don’t serve fruit juice upon request. When I think of “service work” I don’t think of military service nor the other way around, with that said, I could see how you might consider the term propagandist but it’s uncommon to call it out. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/26 "2018-11-30T01:26:15Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Actually, yes, you are. > > You seem to have a very narrow definition of service. So is it fair to say that “service” is basically a synonym of “employment”? If not, what distinguishes employment that is service from that which is not? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/27 "2018-11-30T01:28:00Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Certainly, they are. As others have pointed out, the “public service” is a common term for the workforce and undertaking of the entirel public sector; everyone working in the public sector is a public servant engaged in public service. Workers in the private sector are also commonly spoken of as being engaged in service, and the thread already abounds with examples of this usage. Waiters and shop assistants serve customers; what they do is, by definition, service. Employees in pretty well any position can measure the length of their service in that position. Etc, etc. > > In fact, if there’s a usage of “service” which excludes particular forms of work, I’m not familiar with it. Can you point to any actual real-world examples of this usage? Well, you’re Australian, I take it, but would an American say “thank you for your service” to any government employee? If not, then there is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/28 "2018-11-30T01:29:46Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Of course, the intended sense of the term is that in doing it, you’re automatically doing something wonderful for the benefit of others. Which is, in my opinion, _far_ from a reliable assumption about military jobs. (Or for politicians, for that matter.) When it comes to the military I think that calling military employment “service” is a propaganda move intended to attract people to work for the military both cheaply and without them questioning the properties and morality of the job. _And it works._ Thing is, there’s a rock-solid argument to be made that working in certain military organizations is an unethical endeavor, and that an ethical person should go out of their way to avoid such work. There’s an excellent argument to be made that the United States military has been such an organization at certain times and certain places. There’s even an argument to be made that, broadly speaking, the US military is such an organization today. So make that argument, in a thread where it’s appropriate to make that argument, if you want. But if you just vent your frustration with a cryptic and ill-considered “There’s glory for you!” post in a thread about the military, you’re not in any way remotely making that argument. You’re doing something tangential, and counterproductive to that argument. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/29 "2018-11-30T01:29:56Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Well, you’re Australian, I take it, but would an American say “thank you for your service” to any government employee? If not, then there is a difference. They could, but it’s hard to recognize a government employee at the Metro. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/30 "2018-11-30T01:33:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > They could, but it’s hard to recognize a government employee at the Metro. The IRS really needs to get those uniforms rolled out. It would do wonders for morale. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/31 "2018-11-30T02:07:31Z")
I think it’s safe to say that just about every job, whether in the public or private sector, involves service of some kind, either to one’s employer, clients, or customers. I think it’s also safe to say that in the context of American vernacular, military “service” means something a little different, and is looked upon by most as a more noble or noteworthy form or level of service. Whether it is right or wrong for society to place military service on a higher plane than other forms of monetarily compensated service should be the discussion here, I believe. Just my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/32 "2018-11-30T02:10:52Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Well, you’re Australian, I take it, but would an American say “thank you for your service” to any government employee? If not, then there is a difference. That custom might tell you that Americans regard military service as being particularly important and particularly deserving of thanks; it doesn’t suggest that they think it’s the _only_ form of service. They might readily accept that, e.g. the postman is also providing a service; just not a service that calls for formal or ritual thanks. [For the record, I’m Irish, living in Australia.] ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/33 "2018-11-30T02:15:44Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > That custom might tell you that Americans regard military service as being particularly important and particularly deserving of thanks; it doesn’t suggest that they think it’s the _only_ form of service. They might readily accept that, e.g. the postman is also providing a service; just not a service that calls for formal or ritual thanks. > > [For the record, I’m Irish, living in Australia.] Sure. Like I said there is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Terrific](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tom_terrific/32/342_2.png) [@Tom\_Terrific](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Terrific)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/34 "2018-11-30T02:16:20Z")
Working for no pay is slavery or volunteer work. Even prisoners get paid (poorly) for their work. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/35 "2018-11-30T02:22:54Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Helping people for free, obviously. An example that leaps to mind is mowing an invalid’s lawn for them. That would be charitable service. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/36 "2018-11-30T02:30:25Z")
> [@Tom\_Terrific](#): > > Working for no pay is slavery or volunteer work. Even prisoners get paid (poorly) for their work. Texas prisoners are unpaid, and, in a way, I suppose are volunteers… ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Terrific](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tom_terrific/32/342_2.png) [@Tom\_Terrific](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Terrific)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/37 "2018-11-30T02:35:28Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Texas prisoners are unpaid, and, in a way, I suppose are volunteers… Really, I didn’t know that.:o ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/38 "2018-11-30T06:24:40Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > But not all forms of work are “service”, in common usage. > > I simply do not agree with the common propagandized notion that military work is a type of work that can fairly be characterized as service. Your statement reminds me very much of a friend who got extremely irate about the term “Civil War” because “there wasn’t anything civil about it!” I tried to explain to him the root of the word civil and how it led correctly to this usage, but he would have none of it. Let’s look at the [etymology of the word “service”](https://www.etymonline.com/word/service). The root of the word dates back to Latin, _servitium_, meaning slavery or servitude. By the 13th century, the term’s common usage included: > [@](#): > > Meanings “state of being bound to undertake tasks for someone or at someone’s direction; labor performed or undertaken for another” are mid-13c. Sense of “service or employment in a court or administration” is from c. 1300, as is that of “military service (especially by a knight); employment as a soldier;” hence “the military as an occupation” (1706). In other words, from its earliest roots, “service” has meant that someone has followed the orders of another. [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service) lists the following broad categories of “service” > [@](#): > > Altruism, a principle or practice of caring for the welfare of others > Administrative service, a part of the work load of university faculty > Civil service, the body of employees of a government > Community service, volunteer service for the benefit of a community or a punishment that may be imposed by a court > Customer service, provision of assistance to customers or clients > Domestic service, employment in a residence > Fan service, a Japanese term referring to something which is specifically designed to entertain fans > Military service, serving in a country’s armed forces. > Public service, services carried out with the aim of providing a public good > Selfless service, a service which is performed without any expectation of result or award > Table service, food served by waiters and waitresses, also known as servers > Volunteering, action taken to benefit others for no benefit to the one performing the action **begbert2** - I think you are making an arbitrary distinction that isn’t supported by any historical or current common usage. May I suggest that you reframe your objection to military service in another manner? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/39 "2018-11-30T08:05:50Z")
I think I get what he’s talking about. I don’t think the etymology or definitions will hit the problem. Because it seems the OP’s problem is with connotation, not denotation. The words “serve” and “service,” when used about the military, don’t just carry the meaning of “having been in the military.” He argues that it also means > [@begbert2](#): > > you’re automatically doing something wonderful for the benefit of others. He sees the use of the term “service” as in “thank you for your service” to be part of military glorification. He sees the repeated use of “serve” in the title and poll questions of the other thread as part of elevating military service above others. At least, that’s how I read it. And I can’t argue that there’s nothing to this. I’m not gonna make a big fuss about it because I think there are other, better targets for reducing military over-glorification. That said, simply saying what he said in that thread makes it sound like you’re actually saying “Since you are paid, all that work you did in the military is worthless, and you shouldn’t be thanked for it.” Or “you didn’t actually sacrifice anything, since you got paid, so you didn’t serve.” And that understandably rankled people. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301/40 "2018-11-30T12:34:48Z")
> [@Tom\_Terrific](#): > > Working for no pay is slavery or volunteer work. Even prisoners get paid (poorly) for their work. Military service is indeed a form of slavery - or more precisely, because it’s not permanent, a form of\*\* indentured servitude\*\*. It’s just servitude to a country rather than to an individual, and since at least in principal, in a democratic society the State \*is \*the people, then to some degree it’s service to yourself. It is not, however, a job. For one, pay aside, it’s a lot easier to quit a job. You can’t just say “take this job and shove it” to the military, because the military shoves back. And really, in what other profession can they order you to risk your life, and if you refuse, they can throw you in jail or even execute you? The military may or may no be service, but it’s certainly something of a completely different order of being than a job. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-begbert2-what-is-actually-worthy-of-being-called-a-service/825301.md?page=3)