# So, Britain Secedes from the Union. Why will there be No War? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223 "2016-06-24T12:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/21 "2016-06-24T14:50:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@doorhinge](#): > > > > And then someone decided it would be a good idea to attack the Union troops at Ft. Sumter. > > > > The citizens of the northern states didn’t care if the southern states left the U.S.A… _Buh bye. Have a nice day. So long. Get well soon._ > > This is absolutely false. The North was furious over secession and was not going to allow it; Fort Sumter was a match, but the gasoline was already being poured. I’ve seen the argument before that the South might’ve successfully left if they hadn’t been so belligerent as to initiate hostilities. This is argued in [American Nations](https://smile.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-Cultures/dp/0143122029/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1466778872&sr=8-1): that “Yankeedom” (most of New England) was disgusted with secession from the beginning, but New York City and New Jersey weren’t, and people further west were more ambivalent than fully decided, at least until the violent seizures of federal property such as post offices, mints, customs offices. And Sumter. Sumter was last straw, according to Colin Woodword, who has a very brief but convincing-ish argument about it all. I’m not really the best person to evaluate its deeper merits but… it seems to hold together? I donno. Anyway, I read the thing and so it’s easy to imagine the South getting away if they hadn’t been so thoroughly reprehensible violent slaveholding scum, with the usual Catch-22 that they wouldn’t have wanted to get away in the first place if they hadn’t been so thoroughly reprehensible violent slaveholding scum. I’d be interested in any argument to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/22 "2016-06-24T14:54:23Z")
That was an smile.amazon link, and now it’s knetbooks. What the fucking fuck? EDIT: And now it’s back to smile.amazon. ??? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/23 "2016-06-24T14:57:23Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > But now we have a tunnel!! MUHAHAHaha…ha I hope that laughter isn’t EXPLOSIVE! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/24 "2016-06-24T14:58:59Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I see this as the site of the next really really really tiny war. Nah, the arguments I gave to some worried British friends the last time we had a slow news day in the summer still hold. With the amount of money that Spanish politicians keep in Gibraltar and the Channel Isles, we’d need something like a Podemos-led government (assuming they have their Venezuelan gift money someplace else). And if that happens I’m hanging the “available” shingle and seeing about moving to Australia, which as I understand I am eligible for by age+profession combination. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/25 "2016-06-24T15:34:36Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I, for one, remember the Maine. What about the Alamo? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/26 "2016-06-24T15:35:27Z")
I Remember Mama ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/27 "2016-06-24T15:37:18Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > What about the Alamo? Who cares, with Hertz and Avis. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/28 "2016-06-24T15:50:21Z")
> [@](#): > > So, Britain Secedes from the Union. Why will there be No War? I don’t think you grasp what the EU is, or what part the UK had in that union if you think there was even a possibility of war. This is completely apples to orangutans comparing the Brits in the EU and the southern states seceding from the Union. > [@](#): > > I mean, it’s not even a wild possibility. And while riding the bus today, I was thinking, given the result of the Confederate States leaving the United States, or even the more recent breakup of the Balkans, to quote Bob Dole, “Where’s the outrage?” The EU is an ECONOMIC and trade union, not a federal union. In fact, that’s one of it’s biggest flaws, IMHO…each nation in the EU is autonomous and can set it’s own tax policy, for example. Completely different than the US and the Confederate States. > [@](#): > > Is it that the European Union doesn’t feel like a solid nation like the United States, and so there’s no sense of treason? It’s just an association like NATO? It ISN’T a nation. The EU, again, is a trade union. Each country in the union is sovereign nation, unlike the states in the US. NATO, of course, is a military defensive treaty, but yeah, the EU is like that in a way…a trade union between completely sovereign and individual nations instead of a defensive treaty organization between the same. The US is, after all, in NATO, and we could leave that treaty anytime without a civil war happening. > [@](#): > > Or is Europe just too civilized for war these days? (Pardon me for wetting my pants laughing.) Well, THEY certainly think they are the height of civilization, but that has nothing to do with why there is no war over this even possible. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/29 "2016-06-24T15:57:29Z")
The OP raises a good point. These **N** orth **A** tlantic states need some sort of **T** reaty **O** rganization to prevent the next war. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/30 "2016-06-24T16:05:22Z")
The UK is talking about invoking a procedure in a trade treaty to leave said treaty. It’s a big deal in a lot of ways, but it’s nothing like a part of a country seceding from the rest. There’s no plan for the UK to attack other countries or to seize assets that belong to anyone else. It’s not really close to the Confederacy seceding from the US. It would be more like the Confederacy if the UK was leaving both the EU and NATO, neither had an exit clause, the UK was seizing any EU physical property and economic assets they could get their hands on, and demanding surrender of and attacking NATO forces in British territory. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/31 "2016-06-24T16:25:26Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > It’s not really close to the Confederacy seceding from the US. It would be more like the Confederacy if the UK was leaving both the EU and NATO, neither had an exit clause, the UK was seizing any EU physical property and economic assets they could get their hands on, and demanding surrender of and attacking NATO forces in British territory. …and if they told the King of Europe to get bent in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/32 "2016-06-24T16:31:22Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > … I expect the British to come together and create an even greater Great Britian. it requires some very large degree of ignorance about the United Kingdom of Great Britain to write this given the recent history and the patterns of the voting… ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/33 "2016-06-24T16:34:15Z")
If someone would just go assassinate an Archduke this war would get started in no time. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/34 "2016-06-24T16:35:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This is absolutely false. The North was furious over secession and was not going to allow it; Fort Sumter was a match, but the gasoline was already being poured. No match = no fire. Politicians and media outlets were furious over secession. Farm boys in Illinois, Ohio, and Maine didn’t give a hoot about secession, or slavery, or cotton. They had no reason to pick up arms and shoot at some farm boys from Georgia, Virginia, or Texas. The northern states did not have a standing army large enough to invade or defend itself from southern armies. It was the attack on Ft Sumter that triggered the call to arms and farm boys responded in droves. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/35 "2016-06-24T16:37:44Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Quite a bit of Western France is, in fact, English territory … The Netherlands are entitled to Belgium … there’s the eastern provinces, they have a long history of belonging to Germany … And there are some brown-skinned people who want their land back. You can take your house with you. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/36 "2016-06-24T16:45:58Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > it requires some very large degree of ignorance about the United Kingdom of Great Britain to write this given the recent history and the patterns of the voting… And yet G.B. keeps bouncing back from wars and hardships. How was that possible before but it’s not possible today? What is missing from the current crop of British subjects that past generations of Brits had in abundance? Maybe you’re selling the British people short? I have faith in the Brits. It won’t be easy but they will bounce back. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/37 "2016-06-24T16:49:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The OP raises a good point. These **N** orth **A** tlantic states need some sort of **T** reaty **O** rganization to prevent the next war. Nah. It’s too expensive. The US can’t afford it and doesn’t need it anyway. Or so says a certain candidate… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/38 "2016-06-24T16:54:19Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > And yet G.B. keeps bouncing back from wars and hardships. How was that possible before but it’s not possible today? What is missing from the current crop of British subjects that past generations of Brits had in abundance? Maybe you’re selling the British people short? I have faith in the Brits. It won’t be easy but they will bounce back. What does this non sequitur even mean? It is some bizarre waving of hands in romantic nationalist discourse… The regions of the UK - the Great Britain voted very differently, the Scottish, the North Irish, the Welsh voted in. It was English who voted out. And the Scottish only just narrowly stayed in the Great Britain. Writing about “bouncing” back is empty romanticism. ---
**Author:** ![Sampsiceramos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Sampsiceramos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampsiceramos)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/39 "2016-06-24T17:00:09Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > And yet G.B. keeps bouncing back from wars and hardships. How was that possible before but it’s not possible today? What is missing from the current crop of British subjects that past generations of Brits had in abundance? Maybe you’re selling the British people short? I have faith in the Brits. It won’t be easy but they will bounce back. Well, for one, there will be no Britain once Scotland secedes (which looks very likely), so it will be the English, the Welsh, and the Northern Irish - assuming of course that the Northern Irish, who like the Scots are firmly in favour of remaining within the EU, do not choose to reunify with Ireland. @ **Ramira** AFAIK every county south of Scotland bar London voted Leave - Wales was not on the whole in favour of remaining. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/40 "2016-06-24T17:08:15Z")
There is no EU army. If there was, there would be a war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223.md?page=3)