# So, Britain Secedes from the Union. Why will there be No War? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223 "2016-06-24T12:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/41 "2016-06-24T17:12:45Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > And yet G.B. keeps bouncing back from wars and hardships. How was that possible before but it’s not possible today? What is missing from the current crop of British subjects that past generations of Brits had in abundance? Maybe you’re selling the British people short? I have faith in the Brits. It won’t be easy but they will bounce back. Gosh, that old Blitz Spirit! The Brits _have_ united against a foreign foe. That’s history. Now it’s Brit against Brit. Urban against rural. Young against old. Scotland against England. Northern Ireland against England. Immigrant against Nativist. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/42 "2016-06-24T17:13:22Z")
No, there wouldn’t. For as big a mistake as this likely is, ultimately the UK is exercising an option it had within the applicable treaty. Like the bureaucrats in Brussels really want to invade England anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/43 "2016-06-24T17:15:27Z")
> [@Sampsiceramos](#): > > @ **Ramira** AFAIK every county south of Scotland bar London voted Leave - Wales was not on the whole in favour of remaining. I saw an earlier map which made me think more, but here at the FT they are showing a substantial number of the Welsh coastal counties, which I think also represent a significant percentage of the welsh population > **[EU referendum results map in full](https://ig.ft.com/sites/elections/2016/uk/eu-referendum/)** > > Follow live results with the FT At least it is not only the Scottish. ---
**Author:** ![Sampsiceramos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Sampsiceramos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampsiceramos)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/44 "2016-06-24T17:24:26Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I saw an earlier map which made me think more, but here at the FT they are showing a substantial number of the Welsh coastal counties, which I think also represent a significant percentage of the welsh population > [https://ig.ft.com/sites/elections/2016/uk/eu-referendum/](https://ig.ft.com/sites/elections/2016/uk/eu-referendum/) > > At least it is not only the Scottish. AFAIK the only county in shown on that map which is particularly populous and in favour of remaining is Cardiff county - if memory serves the western coast of Wales is rather sparsely populated, and the vast majority of the population lives in the vicinity of Swansea, Newport and Cardiff on the southern coast. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/45 "2016-06-24T17:28:44Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > …The regions of the UK - the Great Britain voted very differently, the Scottish, the North Irish, the Welsh voted in. It was English who voted out. And the Scottish only just narrowly stayed in the Great Britain. > > Writing about “bouncing” back is empty romanticism. Do you know how the English, Scots, and Welsh will respond to this event? Are you suggesting that the English, Scots, and Welsh will not, or can not, take this vote in stride and bounce back? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/46 "2016-06-24T17:32:06Z")
Yes I am partly mistaken but the vote Leave total for the Wales is narrow, the mirror of the vote Remain of the Northern Ireland: [Subscribe to read | Financial Times](https://next.ft.com/content/e404c2fc-3913-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7) but in any case the idea that such a vote will bring the British together with these very strong regional differences and the tensions in the political outlooks of the regions, it is a ridiculous fantasy, this is a catalyst for a dissolution, that I hope they avoid, but… ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/47 "2016-06-24T17:32:48Z")
To paraphrase Stalin. How many divisions does the EU have ? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/48 "2016-06-24T17:34:38Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Do you know how the English, Scots, and Welsh will respond to this event? Are you suggesting that the English, Scots, and Welsh will not, or can not, take this vote in stride and bounce back? I am suggesting that instead of engaging in the romantic fantasy and the empty “do you know” false questions, one looks to the actual political terrain. Bounce back is an empty phrase of no meaning. Open preparations for break-up referendum which already are being advanced by a Scottish independence movement that only narrowly missed winning a referendum for a Scottish population that voted massively for the remaining in the EU and were promised things in their referendum - these are real facts, not an empty romanticism. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/49 "2016-06-24T17:40:46Z")
> [@Sampsiceramos](#): > > Well, for one, there will be no Britain once Scotland secedes… (post shortened) But, as of today, there is still a Great Britain. If and when Scotland secedes and/or Ireland reunites, based on G.B. long history of overcoming adversity, I see no reason to believe that G.B. will not be a major economic power (they still know how to make money) and a major military power. The economies of Greece, Portugal, and Spain will continue to be a drain/strain on the taxpayers of the other members of the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/50 "2016-06-24T17:47:18Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Is it that old saw that wars don’t happen between democracies? Why not? What gives democracies immunity to war between themselves? Just to address this snippet, an old saw is exactly what it is: [wars do happen between democracies](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/51 "2016-06-24T17:49:08Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > I mean, it’s not even a wild possibility. And while riding the bus today, I was thinking, given the result of the Confederate States leaving the United States, or even the more recent breakup of the Balkans, to quote Bob Dole, “Where’s the outrage?” > > Is it that old saw that wars don’t happen between democracies? Why not? What gives democracies immunity to war between themselves? > > Is it that the European Union doesn’t feel like a solid nation like the United States, and so there’s no sense of treason? It’s just an association like NATO? > > Or is Europe just too civilized for war these days? (Pardon me for wetting my pants laughing.) > > No really, why no war drums or saber rattling? A war against Britain would cause 100x the economic damage - to everyone - than the Brexit itself would. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/52 "2016-06-24T17:50:15Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Do you know how the English, Scots, and Welsh will respond to this event? Are you suggesting that the English, Scots, and Welsh will not, or can not, take this vote in stride and bounce back? They might well bounce in different directions. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/53 "2016-06-24T17:52:49Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I am suggesting that instead of engaging in the romantic fantasy and the empty “do you know” false questions, one looks to the actual political terrain. Bounce back is an empty phrase of no meaning. > > Open preparations for break-up referendum which already are being advanced by a Scottish independence movement that only narrowly missed winning a referendum for a Scottish population that voted massively for the remaining in the EU and were promised things in their referendum - these are real facts, not an empty romanticism. The Scottish separation has been under preparation since the last attempt failed. It will continue. Let me know when/if it actually happens. If you’re handicapping a horse race, it’s best to look at the horse’s history and the jockey’s record. G.B., the Brits, have a long history of overcoming adversity. I expect them to do the same this time. The Brits will bounce back just like they have so many times in the past. There is nothing basically wrong with the G.B. economy. It’s obvious that neither, you or I, can’t predict the future. My prediction is based on the Brits character as a nation. They have bounced back before and, I believe, will bounce back again. You can keep your romanticism and romantic fantasy of a failed G.B… ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/54 "2016-06-24T17:54:09Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > They might well bounce in different directions. That’s a very real possibility. They “might”. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/55 "2016-06-24T18:03:40Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Gosh, that old Blitz Spirit! The Brits _have_ united against a foreign foe. That’s history. > > Now it’s Brit against Brit. Urban against rural. Young against old. Scotland against England. Northern Ireland against England. Immigrant against Nativist. You forgot to add that it’s the voters vs the political elitist who expected the voters to do what they were being told to do. Silly politicians. Even Obama told the British to stay in the EU. How could the voters ignore Obama? Obama had even threatened/suggested that a separate/independent G.B. would not receive the same economic treatment as it would if it remained a member of the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/56 "2016-06-24T18:21:49Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You can keep your romanticism and romantic fantasy of a failed G.B… it works better this tactic of Rubber and Glue if you actually understand the words. no reason to pursue this theater. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/57 "2016-06-24T18:48:20Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I Remember Mama Yeah, well [I Dismember Mama](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071639/). > [@John\_Mace](#): > > The OP raises a good point. These **N** orth **A** tlantic states need some sort of **T** reaty **O** rganization to prevent the next war. **W** hat **A** **R** ivalry would re **S** ult if well **A** llowed unchecked expansion to gro **W** across the ungroomed **P** asture of E **A** stern Europe without some **C** onfederation of members to oppose i **T**. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/58 "2016-06-24T19:04:21Z")
> [@stranger on a train](#): > > yeah, well [i dismember mama](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071639/). > > **w** hat **a** **r** ivalry would re **s** ult if well **a** llowed unchecked expansion to gro **w** across the ungroomed **p** asture of e **a** stern europe without some **c** onfederation of members to oppose i **t**. > > Stranger Epic. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/59 "2016-06-24T19:08:47Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Obama had even threatened/suggested that a separate/independent G.B. would not receive the same economic treatment as it would if it remained a member of the EU. That’s not a threat, it’s a statement of fact. Of course they won’t. The entire point of the referendum and the "Leave: vote was to rearrange the manner in which the United Kingdom is “treated” in economic terms. It’s what British voters wanted. What the hell do you think the vote was about if not that? > [@](#): > > The northern states did not have a standing army large enough to invade or defend itself from southern armies. It was the attack on Ft Sumter that triggered the call to arms and farm boys responded in droves. I realize history is easier to try to understand if you just assign massive events to a single event, but that’s not how it works. The American Civil War was absolutely going to happen. You need to read up on things like Bloody Kansas, the Crittenden Compromise, and a dozen other things. For Christ’s sake, they held a “Peace Conference” in February of 1861 - two months BEFORE Fort Sumter - in an effort to avert exactly what everyone knew was going to happen, and when it went nowhere everyone knew what was going to happen. The Union was not going to accept secession - it couldn’t - and had the first shots not been at Fort Sumter they’d have been somewhere else, probably within a month. Union citizens were already outraged over the seizure of other federal properties, and in any event the Union simply couldn’t allow secession and hope for the rest of the Union to continue to exist as a unified country. > [@](#): > > And yet G.B. keeps bouncing back from wars and hardships. How was that possible before but it’s not possible today? Who cares? Of course the island of Great Britain is not going to sink into the sea, and people will continue to live there and get along, but they will be worse off for leaving the E.U. You can “Bounce back” from hardship, everyone does, but wouldn’t it be better to not have the hardship in the first place? The UK “bounced back” from the Great War, but would things not have been better had it not had to? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223/60 "2016-06-24T19:10:30Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I, for one, remember the Maine. That’s right, Maine is out of the EU as well … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-britain-secedes-from-the-union-why-will-there-be-no-war/758223.md?page=4)