# So Bruce Jener is LGBT - Who gives a F\*CK **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 26, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542 "2015-04-26T00:42:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/81 "2015-04-26T21:58:59Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I can answer this question. For better or for worse, I feel like Bruce Jenner is someone I know. I was watching in 1976 when he won the decathlon, and have been aware of some of his activities since then. I haven’t watched other stories/documentaries about transgender people because the issue was alien to me and made me very uncomfortable. But because it was Bruce Jenner, someone I knew, I watched this interview. And it had a profound effect on me. I have been reading another, much more conservative forum, where people are discussing the interview. For the most part, they have been very respectful and understanding, and many of them had a similar reaction to mine – after watching the interview, they have a better understanding of what it means to be transgender. Like me, these people might not have watched a story about an unknown transgender individual, but they watched this one because they knew Jenner either from his Olympic history, his other entertainment work, or his involvement with the Kardashians. > > While Jenner may have more money than the average transgender person, I think in other ways his story is probably typical, especially for someone his age. I don’t see how the failed marriages, the attempts to hide his true identity, or the difficulty in telling his children would be different for a non-celebrity. Thank you for explaining. Obviously we are quite different in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![scrotchy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@scrotchy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scrotchy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/82 "2015-04-26T21:59:49Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > What is your alternative? Do you think transgender people should be ridiculed? Shunned? Should they be arrested if they try to dress as a different gender? > > Who makes the decision about who should be tolerated? There are plenty of examples throughout the world and throughout history in which people who are different in some way are abused, enslaved or killed. > > What is the value to you, or to anyone, of treating people badly because they are different from you? Who benefits? Part of my liberal version of the world is that we learn to treat everyone with kindness and respect. As I said earlier in this thread, I have had a really hard time with people being transgender. It’s something I couldn’t understand, and it made me uncomfortable. But I would never say that they should “get out of my face” or that they were being ridiculous. The responsibility is on me to be tolerant and try to understand. The alternative is calling a spade a spade. Eventually it becomes too fucked up. Even leaffan, while shouting down people in this thread that back off from this shit, is struggling. Hey, why not just accept it and be tolerant? Why the struggle if we all need to do a group hug? Let’s celebrate! I am not in to treating people badly in general, only treating people badly when it become too much of a freak show. Badly = get a grip, and cut the shit. Where does it stop? Where is your line in the sand? You roll into a bar with your buddy, “Hey guys, this is my friend who fucks farm animals. Be tolerant you close minded fucks! Who has the next round?” :rolleyes: The icing on the cake is Jenner is a wingnut. Heads explode. You can’t make this shit up. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/83 "2015-04-26T22:29:30Z")
My tolerance ends where people are causing harm to others and preventing them from living the lives they want to live. I am not infinitely tolerant, but I’m just not seeing how a person wanting to live as a different gender hurts anyone. I guess I would say that the default should be tolerance, and people who want to be intolerant should have to make their case. We have seen with marriage equality that there isn’t much of a case to be made for intolerance, and I can’t see much of one with regard to transgender issues either. But if someone wants to try to make the case, I’m willing to listen. “It’s a freak show” and “I just don’t find him credible” is not evidence and certainly doesn’t convince me. **Stink Pot Fish** , you are confusing sexual orientation with gender identity, something that is complicated and that Diane Sawyer tried to explain in the interview. Since you saw the interview, you know that Jenner said that he is heterosexual, that he is attracted to women, and that he has never been with a man. He married three times because he is attracted to women. He had children with his wives and had good, active sex lives with them because he enjoys having sex with women. He was aroused during sex because he is aroused by women. The sexual part of his marriages has nothing to do with the fact that he considers himself to be a woman. As for the name thing, what makes you think he has made a final determination of the name he will go by? He hasn’t even made a final determination as to whether he will have gender reassignment surgery. He’s correct that if he says a name now, the media will associate that name with him for the rest of his life. It makes sense for him to wait to choose the name he wants to live by and be sure of it before making it public. He may even want to try privately living with a name for a while to see if he likes it. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/84 "2015-04-26T22:44:07Z")
I cannot believe that we actually have someone in this thread who is dealing with this issue on a personal level and people are still being this… what? Hateful? Ignorant? In some cases, insulting for sure. As soon as you think we’re making great strides in becoming more advanced in our ideologist, there’s confirmation right in your face that we have a hell of a lot longer way to go than we believe. I just hope that those who are acting so disrespectfully remember their behavior when others don’t give them a pass on whatever difficulties they face and understand when they get handed the same sort of intolerance and willful disregard and insensitivity. **Leaffan** , my best to you and your son. May all that you both have to go through be as painless as possible and the harsh attitudes of bigotry not rear its ugly head. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/85 "2015-04-26T22:58:10Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Since you saw the interview, you know that Jenner said that he is heterosexual, that he is attracted to women, and that he has never been with a man. Did he explain why he hasn’t switched pronouns and why he considers himself to be straight? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/86 "2015-04-26T23:01:01Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > … > > **Leaffan** , (and anyone else personally dealing with this)… just curious… Does the Jenner story help your situation, or does it complicate it? Or, does it not have an impact at all? > > All the best to you and yours. It helps. Anything to feel that you’re not alone helps. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/87 "2015-04-26T23:10:26Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > That happens to be true of many cis-gendered women, too. The majority of women aren’t particularly beautiful, specially once they’re Jenner’s age. > [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Most men aren’t that great looking either. Both true statements. However, sometimes men forget that their priorities in regard to women (often that is appearance) are not the same as women’s priorities in regard to women. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > Sorry… Jenner has issues. That doesn’t mean he isn’t serious about wanting to be a woman, but my problem is this… If he felt like this since he was a young boy, why get married not once, but three different times? I don’t get that. Because transitioning used to be a lot harder, there is immense social pressure to be “normal”, and presumably he had some affection for those women he married. As noted, there is nothing inconsistent with Jenner being sexually attracted to women either before or after a transition or both. Pre-transition Jenner would be described as “heterosexual” and post-transition as “homosexual” if sexual attraction does not change. > [@](#): > > His unwillingness to even tell the audience what the name he chose was just another indication that he wants to milk this for as long as possible. He wants to keep that private? Really? Why, unless you can get more attention, or more viewers for your reality show? My God, he’s changing his sex from male to female, and he won’t share the name he’s picked out? That sounds strange to me. What if he hasn’t made a final decision on that name? ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/88 "2015-04-26T23:22:56Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > It helps. Anything to feel that you’re not alone helps. Fair enough. I know I am a stranger on a message board, but for what it’s worth, my heart goes out to you and your family during this difficult time. If I knew you in person, I would do whatever I could to help you out… And that would include minding my own business if that’s what you desired. Stay strong. Your child, no matter what happens, is your child and a part of you. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/89 "2015-04-26T23:34:24Z")
FWIW, I was very close friends with a person who was in the process of a gender transition. He hadn’t picked out a name because for him, it was kind of a fraught issue. Discarding the name your parents gave you-- their first gift, and a thing you’ve lived with all your life-- isn’t always an easy thing. At the same time, that name is a constant, daily reminder of something that is deeply, painfully wrong to you. None of the feminizations of his name were appealing to him, but choosing a name at random also seemed silly and fake. He didn’t want a new name, he didn’t want the disorder to begin with. He just wanted for things to be right. When you think about it, the whole idea that you NEED to change your name when you change your gender is kind of silly. Why are we so darn obsessed with dividing every darn thing into gendered ghettos? ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/90 "2015-04-26T23:57:12Z")
This will be my last post to address these things in this thread. I do not want to offend **leaffan** , or anyone else, who is dealing with this subject in a very personal way. This is IMHO, and I am sharing my opinion on **Bruce Jenner** and his life. NOT on anyone else. Period. > [@Broomstick](#): > > What if he hasn’t made a final decision on that name? > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > My tolerance ends where people are causing harm to others and preventing them from living the lives they want to live. I am not infinitely tolerant, but I’m just not seeing how a person wanting to live as a different gender hurts anyone. I guess I would say that the default should be tolerance, and people who want to be intolerant should have to make their case. We have seen with marriage equality that there isn’t much of a case to be made for intolerance, and I can’t see much of one with regard to transgender issues either. But if someone wants to try to make the case, I’m willing to listen. “It’s a freak show” and “I just don’t find him credible” is not evidence and certainly doesn’t convince me. > > **Stink Pot Fish** , you are confusing sexual orientation with gender identity, something that is complicated and that Diane Sawyer tried to explain in the interview. Since you saw the interview, you know that Jenner said that he is heterosexual, that he is attracted to women, and that he has never been with a man. He married three times because he is attracted to women. He had children with his wives and had good, active sex lives with them because he enjoys having sex with women. He was aroused during sex because he is aroused by women. The sexual part of his marriages has nothing to do with the fact that he considers himself to be a woman. > > As for the name thing, what makes you think he has made a final determination of the name he will go by? > > \ This is IMHO, not a fact-based forum. I’m not trying to convince you of anything. I just gave my opinion. As to Jenner… Yeah, I saw the interview, and I heard what he said. I am not confusing sexual orientation with gender identity. I just cannot wrap my head around what he said. I just don’t _ **understand** _ it. You say you do? Ok… Great. But if a guy is heterosexual, I personally don’t understand the desire to change gender to be a homosexual. I truly don’t. Sorry. I can understand a lot of things, but this is not one of them. I’m not saying he doesn’t have the right to change his sexual assignment… That is a personal decision for Jenner (and IMO, his children). I personally don’t think Jenner can make this decision in a vacuum, without considering the implications to his kids, but he clearly sees things differently. But to me, when you have children, you forfeit your right to make certain decisions without discussing things with them first. Again, this is just my POV. I think Jenner is turning this into a circus. Not for all transgenders… For himself. As for his name… I thought he said he did pick one out, but he wanted to keep that “one thing to himself.” Because, in his mind, once that comes out, there will be no privacy for him at all. Or something. I found it dubious because Jenner is sharing this entire journey with an audience. How much privacy does he really expect? By the way, he also told the world that he goes out into the world in dresses, make-up, and wigs… (Or did I misunderstand that?) Does he think that now that he’s announced that nugget, people are not going to camp out on his life, cameras in hand, and follow his every movement? He’s worried about his name? Please. He’s begging for the tabloids to follow his every move, because there is an appetite for his story. Sorry, IMHO, he will announce his new name on a TV show, and he is betting millions of people will be curious enough to tune it. Yeah, call me skeptical of his motives. Doesn’t mean I am right… JMO. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/91 "2015-04-27T00:10:00Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > But if a guy is heterosexual, I personally don’t understand the desire to change gender to be a homosexual. I truly don’t. Sorry. > > I can understand a lot of things, but this is not one of them. Because, as his been mentioned several times in this thread, sexual attraction and gender identity are not the same thing. It’s not a big deal if you don’t sympathize or support his decision, but at least you can understand it, right? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/92 "2015-04-27T00:37:17Z")
OK, missed the interview. He said he was heterosexual but now wishes to be a lesbian? Did he describe an ideal post surgical relationship? Does he already have a significant other in the wings? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/93 "2015-04-27T00:42:11Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > Did he explain why he hasn’t switched pronouns and why he considers himself to be straight? He hasn’t switched pronouns because he is currently presenting to the world as male. The interview with Diane Sawyer is intended to be the last time he presents as male in public. He is going to try to begin living as female, and once he publicly presents as female, female pronouns will be appropriate. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I am not confusing sexual orientation with gender identity…But if a guy is heterosexual, I personally don’t understand the desire to change gender to be a homosexual. I truly don’t. This is where I believe that you are confusing sexual orientation with gender identity. Jenner is not changing gender to be a homosexual. He is changing gender to be a woman. The fact that he is and will continue to be attracted to women has nothing to do with it (except that a different word may be used to describe his sexual orientation). If he was attracted to women, and changed his religion, or his hairstyle, or his profession, he would still be attracted to women. He’s changing his gender, but that doesn’t change his attraction. Suppose you woke up tomorrow in the body of a woman. Do you think you would suddenly be attracted to men, or would you still be attracted to women, even though you were in a woman’s body? I don’t think that there is necessarily a right or wrong answer to this question, but it might help you to think about what is going on here. **Magiver** - He hasn’t even decided yet whether he will have sexual reassignment surgery. He said that he is concentrating on the transition right now, and joked that he’s 65 and sexual activity isn’t the number one thing on his mind. He said for now he will be asexual until he figures things out. He did say he was heterosexual, and that he’d never had a relationship with a man, but didn’t go so far as to say that he will be a lesbian after transition. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/94 "2015-04-27T00:42:50Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > But if a guy is heterosexual, I personally don’t understand the desire to change gender to be a homosexual. I truly don’t. Sorry. Rather than directly addressing this point, I’ll just suggest you think about the implications for cisgender gay folks. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/95 "2015-04-27T00:59:49Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > **Magiver** - He hasn’t even decided yet whether he will have sexual reassignment surgery. He said that he is concentrating on the transition right now, and joked that he’s 65 and sexual activity isn’t the number one thing on his mind. He said for now he will be asexual until he figures things out. He did say he was heterosexual, and that he’d never had a relationship with a man, but didn’t go so far as to say that he will be a lesbian after transition. OK seems like he created more questions than answers. The interview will certainly make the subject more mainstream but if he’s wishy washy on what he wants then I think it’s going to confuse the people dealing with the transgendered. Not sure the media is going to be smart enough to point out that everybody’s different and there’s an infinite degree of variability. I hope the issue doesn’t get stuck on politically correct to the point it filters out people who had problems post transition. If everybody comes out the other side all smiles and happy then great. If not then be honest with the problems so other people can learn and make good choices. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/96 "2015-04-27T01:17:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OK, missed the interview. He said he was heterosexual but now wishes to be a lesbian? Did he describe an ideal post surgical relationship? Does he already have a significant other in the wings? Well, I don’t know if one can say he _wishes_ to be a lesbian. It’s just that his attraction to women is consistent no matter what else. I have a family member who transitioned MtF, after being married and having 2 children. As [male relative], “he” was big and burly and lumberjack-masculine. She is now married to the same woman, and the kids have 2 moms. It is curious to many outsiders, but it clearly is something which they went into as a family. **Leaffan** , this relative’s parents went to counseling as well, with someone knowledgable about gender identity issues. The counselor said at the start, “As long as your goal is not to change your child’s mind about this, I can help you.” I wish you and yours the very best. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/97 "2015-04-27T02:17:54Z")
**Leaffan,** stay strong and get the support you and your family need. That matters more than random negativity from strangers on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/98 "2015-04-27T02:35:24Z")
> [@susan](#): > > That matters more than random negativity from strangers on a message board. I agree but let’s also be careful not to lump in those of us who are truly grappling with understanding this condition with those expressing random negativity. A desire to fully understand something shouldn’t be shot down as some sort of ‘instant intolerance’ or something. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/99 "2015-04-27T02:37:45Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > What I cannot figure out about these people is why? Ok I get it they dont feel right but afterwards, have you seen them? Jenner is one butt-ugly woman. So was Cher’s daughter, now son “Chastity” and now “Chase”. How could he/she possibly feel more “complete” when they look in the mirror? Let’s see your picture. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542/100 "2015-04-27T02:41:41Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I agree but let’s also be careful not to lump in those of us who are truly grappling with understanding this condition with those expressing random negativity. A desire to fully understand something shouldn’t be shot down as some sort of ‘instant intolerance’ or something. Sure. And I’m talking about, for example, the OP. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-bruce-jener-is-lgbt-who-gives-a-f-ck/718542.md?page=6)